"Would you tell me, please, which way I ought to go from here?"
"That depends a good deal on where you want to get to," said the Cat.
"I don't much care where--" said Alice.
"Then it doesn't matter which way you go," said the Cat.
"--so long as I get somewhere," Alice added as an explanation.
"Oh, you're sure to do that," said the Cat, "if you only walk long enough."
Alice felt that this could not be denied, so she tried another
question.
"What sort of people live about here?"
"In that direction,"
the Cat said, waving its right paw round,
"lives a Hatter: and in that direction,"
waving the other paw,
"lives a March Hare. Visit either you like: they're both mad."
"But I don't want to go among mad people," Alice remarked.
"Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."
==========
It circulates that, at some point in the conversation, Alice tells the Cheshire Cat that "My reality is different than yours..." but apparently that's not in the book.
Nonetheless, that reality not standing, the point stands. There are some people whose reality is different than, well, reality. They may bark at us when we point out reality. They may retreat to hide in sanctuaries full of people who agree with their "reality." They may even start whole new social media and "news" groups just so they can surround themselves with others who believe in their non-reality reality. And, if that's as far as it went, that's all well and good.
But when they emerge with their guns and their anger and insist that everyone else needs to agree with their reality, that's a problem.
When they are elected the president of the US and insist that those who disagree with reality are lying and trying to "steal" an election, that is a big problem.
And when this non-reality-based president is supported and defended by others who insist that his "reality" is correct... or even, "well, maybe he is correct, we'll just have to wait and see..." that is a big problem.
Where are the reality-based conservatives who will stand up and say, "Yes, the people have spoken. We may not like it, but the facts are that the data shows that Biden won the election. Any claims that Trump won or that the election was "stolen" by "fraud" - when they can't and don't support such claims... that is a big problem..."? Where are THOSE conservatives? (Yes, I know I've seen a few - Mitt Romney and others and good for them. But by and large, those conservatives are only attacked and undermined by the rest of the conservatives defending the Mad World of Trump.
So, to be clear:
THEN, you are attempting to defraud the election by presenting a false narrative to undermine the election.
Stop. Don't do that. Don't be silent when those around you are doing it.
We all agree that attempt to defraud an election is bad, but as things stand now, it is Trump and his supporters or silent defenders who are doing it by passing on this false claim.
61 comments:
It's not false simply because you reject the evidence that has been presented for the various forms of fraud and systemic problems created by your kind. You want a video of some guy signing someone else's name and think that's how evidence of election fraud has to look in order for fraud to be real and problematic...particularly for how people view the process in this country. The many signed affidavits alone are evidence, because they are sworn testimonies that have legal consequences attached should any of them be proven to be falsely submitted. Your Stanford study, for example, of one state with definitive criteria and processes that protect the integrity of their mail-in policy does not apply to any other state where those protections are not in place, due to states rushing to mail out ballots willy-nilly to names on voting rolls that aren't up to date. But even there, dead people vote. They just have a harder time in Washington than in other states.
But you believe that because "it doesn't happen that much", well then, no one need be concerned...until it's YOUR vote that is cancelled out by a dead guy, or a guy who voted twice, or someone who is not entitled...for one reason or another...to vote, or because some ballot harvester filled out or altered ballots before submitting them, or any other of the myriad ways you Democrats cheat on a regular basis. Is there enough of your chicanery to alter an election? There are tight races. Recounts until the Democrat wins easily flip the precinct OR state (see Coleman/Franken, for example).
But indeed, the ACTUAL REALITY is there was no evidence of Trump colluding with Russian, yet you hacks still whine about that fiction, while being dishonest in accepting that fraud has been quite rampant. And you haven't the courage in your false conviction of there being no fraud, that you can't hold your water until the courts have had a look at what GOP lawyers have to present. What are you afraid of? That it's the Republicans who cheat? That's not reality. American history has demonstrated they are by far the less likely of the two parties to engage in voter fraud.
Marshal won’t even hear from the Trump administration. Hitler blamed his generals, too.
“Hours after President Trump repeated a baseless report that a voting machine system “deleted 2.7 million Trump votes nationwide,” he was directly contradicted by a group of federal, state and local election officials, who issued a statement on Thursday declaring flatly that the election “was the most secure in American history” and that “there is no evidence” any voting systems were compromised.
The rebuke, in a statement by a coordinating council overseeing the voting systems used around the country, never mentioned Mr. Trump by name. But it amounted to a remarkable corrective to a wave of disinformation that Mr. Trump has been pushing across his Twitter feed.”
Marshal... "It's not false simply because you reject the evidence that has been presented for the various forms of fraud..."
Stop right there. It is false because there is NO data to support claims of widespread voter fraud. I've asked over and over, what fraud? And over and over, no one answers. They don't answer because there is NO DATA to support the claim.
It is an utterly and stupidly false claim.
Now the only - the ONLY! - possible response you can give right now is either
1. Here's the data proving widespread fraud,
OR,
2. you're right. I was mistaken. Trump was stupidly mistaken to say that he won and that there was widespread fraud.
Do one of those or go away. And here's a hint, you can't do number one because it's a stupidly false claim. So can you admit it's a false claim that there's demonstrable widespread voter fraud?
You know how we know it's false? Because you just wrote dozens or even hundreds of words and you did not provide the first link to a single Source verifying widespread voter fraud.
It is a false claim. It is a lie.
Trump lied do your stupid face when he said he won the race. He lied to your face when he said there was widespread voter fraud. He lied to your face when he said the Democrats were stealing the election.
It's all lies and stupid lies. The question is, were you fooled by those lies? Are you passing on the lies because you were stupidly fooled? Or because you're choosing to pass on false claims?
You See, Marshal, if rational people had proof of widespread voter fraud, it wouldn't go around in news conferences and on Facebook and on Twitter saying, "Hey, we have proof of widespread voter fraud! It's happening! Widespread voter fraud. We have proof!!"
What rational people would do is just present the evidence. You see, if you present the evidence and show with data that it happened, there's no need to argue or tell us over and over that you have proof. You just present the proof. That's how dataworks. That's how adults handle disagreements about facts. They provide the proof. It's really quite elegant in its simplicity.
Trump didn't provide proof, Trump's acolytes did not provide proof, you're not providing proof, for one simple reason. You have no proof.
And you have no proof for one simple reason, it didn't happen.
Trump is ready to step down and quit fighting it because it is increasingly clear that he has no proof. And all the rational conservatives have already accepted it.
The question is, how many irrational conservatives are out there still fighting against facts and data? How many of y'all have been fooled by a dim-witted conman?
Quite simple, Marshal. Provide data-based support for your claims... some LINK to an AUTHORITARIVE source (ie, not Brietbart or some trash fake news source), or don't. It's as simple as that.
Don't provide such a source and we can see what the rational world sees about Trump - that you're both bloviating liars. Or show you have some data to prove your claim.
You won't because you can't. Even the idiot Trump recognizes it. Do you?
Admit it, you've lost.
Marshal, proof is proof. Data is proof. How many dead people have voted? Give me a number.
Not dead people? It's poll workers throwing away ballots? Where's the data supporting that claim?
Claims aren't proof. Suspicions aren't proof. "I don't see how it's possible..." isn't proof.
How many election officials have reported misdeeds? Who are they?
Data. Present it or admit you can't.
Look, I'll ask another question... what TYPE of fraud do you suspect caused Trump to lose? The votes of the dead? Ballots being thrown out? What?
Where is your data to support it?
Why do you think Trump isn't providing this "proof..."?
Your arguments are nothing.
Literally.
Here's what the election experts and security experts are saying...
“The November 3rd election was the most secure in American history. Right now, across the country, election officials are reviewing and double checking the entire election process prior to finalizing the result.
“When states have close elections, many will recount ballots. All of the states with close results in the 2020 presidential race have paper records of each vote, allowing the ability to go back and count each ballot if necessary. This is an added benefit for security and resilience. This process allows for the identification and correction of any mistakes or errors.
There is no evidence that any voting system deleted or lost votes, changed votes, or was in any way compromised."
https://www.cisa.gov/news/2020/11/12/joint-statement-elections-infrastructure-government-coordinating-council-election
Emphasis theirs.
Do you think they are lying? Where is your proof?
Do you think that you know better than them? Based upon what?
IF it's so obvious that Marshal can see the "fraud," why aren't experts noticing? Why don't they see the data that you "see..."?
Isn't it more likely that you're just wrong?
https://ideasanddata.wordpress.com/2020/11/10/evidence-of-voter-fraud-in-the-2020-us-presidential-election/
Republican lies proven:
“ Donald Trump's supporters have claimed that thousands of votes were cast in the US election using the names of people who had died.
"I may be 72," Maria Arredondo from Michigan told us when we called her. "But I'm alive and breathing. My mind is working fine and I'm healthy."
Maria said she had voted for Joe Biden and was surprised to hear that her name had appeared on a list of supposedly dead voters in the state.
We spoke to other people in similar situations to that of Maria in Michigan and found similar stories.”
Hah. Marshal provided ONE link. The first bit of "data" and "proof" that I came across from Marshal's link (again, MARSHAL'S OWN LINK "proving" fraud in this election) said this:
"In Fairfax County, a “clerical error” caused Biden votes to be inflated by roughly 100,000."
But the actual link led to this:
"No, Fairfax officials in Virginia didn’t give 100,000 Trump votes to Biden."
The LINK ITSELF disputes the claim.
The rest of the story said, "They realized the error and corrected it within 10 minutes, Scott said."
https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2020/nov/07/facebook-posts/no-fairfax-officials-virginia-didnt-give-100000-tr/
If a mistake was made and corrected, then that is, by definition NOT FRAUD.
Before you say ANYTHING ELSE, Marshal, you need to admit that this first link I followed does NOT support fraud, at all.
Likewise, the second error link Marshal's own source cited (in 2020) literally did NOT point to fraud, but to a human error that was caught and corrected.
Likewise, the THIRD error link Marshal's source cited was a human error and it was not even for the Trump election, but for some Michigan Board of Commissioners election.
Strike one, two and three.
At which point, I quit reading. I'm not wasting my time for something that is not doing what I've asked.
Marshal, if THESE are your very best efforts to prove fraud in this election, then you're done here. Move on. Your own source ultimately undo your premise.
So, are you prepared to say that you have NO DATA to support widespread fraud?
Ha, this is just ridiculous. The FOURTH link I followed led to claims by known criminal liar, "project veritas," as if their methods of lying and faking videos indicates they know a damned thing about veritas.
Strike four.
I might come back to follow more of this link, but if I do so, it's just for the comedic value of seeing how delusional you are, Marshal.
But mostly, it's sad, not funny. Dangerous, not rational.
It's the totality of the various forms of irregularities Dan. The exact numbers don't mean anything, as if you don't care that YOUR vote was cancelled out by the only ballot thrown out of the entire election in the country. You're a freaking liar.
You lie about Project Veritas despite my going over your dishonest and biased concerns due to one singular act of attempting to ferret out media bias. Your own hateful, fake Christian bias again attempts to demonize Veritas on the basis of a single bad decision. What a piece of shit you are!
The exact numbers don't mean anything? Of course they do.
Look, the reality is that there always have been small amounts of voter fraud/irregularities/mistakes. But SMALL (ie, the total number of voting fraud) numbers MEAN EVERYTHING. It means that voter fraud is not a problem in our elections... not a problem in the sense of not coming near affecting any election results.
If there are 10 or even ONE HUNDRED instances of voter fraud in the Trump election in Kentucky, for instance, well, that's AWFUL for those instances. Shame on them. BUT, THE SMALL NUMBERS MEAN that there is no widespread voter fraud.
Now, I'm asking you for the very last time, coward, to admit that you have NO DATA to prove that there was widespread voter fraud.
If you're not saying there is evidence of widespread fraud, then just say that.
I, Marshal, do not think there was widespread voter fraud this election. There is NO DATA to support the claim (that the president has made baselessly) that there was widespread voter fraud or that the election was stolen from him.
That is the reality. Now I need you to say that or go away. No more comments until you say that or, IF you think there was widespread voter fraud, provide data of widespread voter fraud.
The numbers DO matter if the claim is widespread voter fraud. 100 cases is NOT widespread.
Last chance. I'm tired of the lies and the cowardice of Trump's vacuous supporters/defenders.
Since you begin with "yes there is widespread election fraud" and then proceeded to go on for dozens and dozens of words without ever even trying to provide any data to support the stupid claim, I will be deleting this comment from you.
Your task is quite simple. Provide data or admit that you can't.
No more. No less.
Saying you CAN provide the data but not doing it is a losing proposition. No one is stupid enough to believe your empty claims. No one is stupid enough to be believe Trump's stupid claims. Unless maybe you're stupid enough.
But before I delete it, a couple of points.
You say, "frauds like you have gone from no voter fraud to widespread fraud..."
No. We haven't. That is yet another stupidly false claim. Anyone can look at my post and see that I said...
"IF you are making the claim that widespread voter fraud has happened in an attempt to "take away" the election from Trump; and
IF you have no data, no proof, no support for such claims and you make it anyway;
THEN, you are attempting to defraud the election by presenting a false narrative to undermine the election..."
This began when your idiot con man pervert Trump came out and made a claim. He said that he won the election. This was a stupidly false claim. It was not factual. It was false and stupidly False. Only the most extreme of idiots would believe such a claim.
He had not counted the votes. He had no data to support that claim. He made it up.
He pulled it out of his ass and he gave it to you and you ate up that stupidly false claim.
But he didn't stop there. He said they, the Democrats, were trying to steal the election. This is another stupidly false claim. He was claiming that there was voter or election fraud, either one, at a widespread-enough scale to cost him the election.
THAT is the problem. That claim. The claim that there was widespread election fraud.
THAT is what this post is about. I have never said that are not isolated incidents of voter fraud. We KNOW it happens because we've caught the Republicans doing it, you buffoon.
The point has always been that there is not widespread election fraud or voter fraud in our nation. And there's not any data to support widespread voter or election fraud in this election.
You didn't even try to provide any data to support the claim because you can't. Anyone can see this.
Trump isn't supporting the claim. You're not supporting claim. NONE of the idiot Maga wearing brain-dead are trying to support the claim. They're just making empty claims. And everyone can see these idiotic stupidly false claims for what they are.
So, if you can't provide the data, have the integrity to admit it. If you can, just present it. It's just that simple.
By continuing to support this false narrative, you and your idiot Mega followers are the only ones trying to commit voter fraud. And you're failing because you're doing it in such a stupidly inept manner. Making claims of voter fraud does not work. People aren't stupid enough to believe your empty claims when you can't support them. So, go on and continue to try to engage in election fraud if you wish. It's just not going to work. You have lost. And you've lost fair and square, except for YOUR efforts to cheat.
The pertinent parts of Marshal's now-deleted comments. He began with...
"There is evidence of widespread voter/election fraud."
Then proceeded to write ~600 more words without providing ONE SINGLE bit of evidence in support of this rather unbelievable claim.
Once again: Marshal made the same stupidly false claim that Trump has, "there is evidence of widespread voter/election fraud," and JUST LIKE Trump, he failed to even TRY to support this stupidly false claim.
Trump/Marshal/Magates are ALL attempting to undermine an election without providing proof of any of their stupidly false claims. Everyone can see that they aren't even trying to provide support. This does nothing to win rational people over to their side (keeping in mind that I and EVERY progressive/Democrat I know hates election fraud and would stand right by you IF there was any evidence of massive fraud.)
In spite of that, they don't even try to support the claims. Why is that? Is the purpose just to rile up idiots who are too ignorant and fearful to understand the false claim being made? Is Marshal an idiot who has been fooled by a very dim-witted con man? It boggles the mind.
Beyond not supporting his dangerous charge (and again, I can't emphasize enough how dangerous and traitorous these actions/lies are - Trump and his useful idiots truly ARE trying to perpetuate election fraud), Marshal made various nonsensical non-points.
Frauds like you have gone from "no voter fraud" to "no widespread fraud".
Of course, we ALL have been talking about widespread fraud. It's IN MY POST. Literally.
Beyond that, Marshal blathered about other non-issues, then concluding...
I will say this: I have no data to prove fraud.
There. THAT is all I was asking. You literally have NO data to prove fraud. You don't have it because it simply doesn't exist. IF it did exist, Trump would be flying it on the white house flag pole.
What Trump/Marshal/useful idiots are hoping for is an unsupported fishing trip.
"MAYYYYBBEE!" they say (when pushed to admitting they have no proof), "MAYBE there WAS massive fraud. We should count!"
That's not how it works.
Trump led by falsely claiming "I won" when he didn't. He literally had no data to prove that he won. It was and is a dangerous and stupidly false claim.
Trump continued with the false claim "They are stealing the election through fraud" again with no proof because he didn't know it was false because there was no data to prove that it's false.
In 2000, Gore wanted recounts because the election was close (hundreds of votes, not thousands) and it was a reasonable, DATA-BASED case.
From Bush's lawyer...
“There’s not a lot of similarities,” said attorney Barry Richard, who represented Bush in the 2000 saga. “In 2000, there was clearly a problem with the defective ballots. Nobody was claiming fraud or improprieties. It was all about how we made sure everybody’s vote counted.”
From that same story...
“Only about 2000 votes separated Bush from Gore in the initial results out of more than 6 million cast. Mathematically, it was entirely possible that a recount might overturn the results,” he said. “The margins even in the closest states are much larger this time around.”
https://apnews.com/article/election-2020-donald-trump-al-gore-florida-elections-2fed3442e8298aabb1541d6e3aea43b5
So, Gore did not wildly accuse the GOP of stealing the election. He factually noted that the ballot count was close specifically in Florida and there were factually problems with some of the ballots.
That's a big difference. It's the difference between rational adults and spoiled children (at best) or the difference between honest citizens and dim-witted would-be traitors and con artists (at the worst).
Beyond that, Marshal had literally nothing. He did not prove massive fraud because as he finally noted, he CAN'T prove it. And yet, he still stupidly makes the false claim/insinuation.
Marshal... "Widespread voter/election fraud exists. Whether or not to an extent of affecting the outcome of an election is to be determined by investigations and litigation now in progress."
The thing is, Marshal: We're not as stupid as you.
You don't make empty allegations and HOPE that maybe if we recount, your dreams will come true. You raise concerns WHEN data exists to support the concern.
Read slowly and think about it:
THE EVIDENCE YOU NEED TO PROVIDE IS EVIDENCE OF WIDE SPREAD FRAUD IN THIS ELECTION.
Saying, "There was a lady who died whose vote got counted, even though she was dead (and she voted for Trump)" is NOT evidence of wide spread fraud.
Saying, "There were 100 bad ballots in 2016 in Atlanta..." is NOT EVIDENCE of wide spread fraud.
Evidence of widespread fraud - fraud in the thousands in a given state - THAT is evidence of widespread fraud.
We taxpayers are tired of paying for Trump's cons. Your wishful hopes are NOT proof of widespread fraud.
In ALL of what you've said, you've said precisely ONE thing that is factually correct and pertinent to the conversation.
"I have no data to prove fraud."
THAT is all you need to know.
You LITERALLY have NO data to prove widespread fraud. WHY IN THE NAME OF HELL do you want us to pay for these challenges and delays?
"My Trumpy wet dreams" is not a viable answer.
First of all, Marshal, you have ONE simple set of tasks to do before you can comment here.
You MUST either provide support for a claim of widespread election/voter fraud - links not to isolated one-offs, but WIDESPREAD election fraud.
OR
Admit (as you sort of did, while at the same time pretending like it didn't matter) clearly and with no equivocation that there is NO DATA to support claims of "election stealing" or widespread voter/election fraud
AND
Clearly denounce Trump and his useful idiots for ATTEMPTING to actually engage in election fraud by spreading careless and false accusations of election fraud/stealing
AND
while you're at it, admit that your attacks on me and folks like me are baseless, since we're only defending the known results of the election, and an apology for these attacks would be an adult thing to do, as well.
Attacks like this now-deleted comment, where I had noted that Gore was only pursuing an election recount because there was legitimate close call (in Florida) of only hundreds of ballots and where there was some legitimate questionable ballot troubles (dimpled chads and all that). I was noting that this was a reasonable delay in reasonably questioning the votes because it was close enough to be a possible difference... You responded to that by saying...
" My point was how you whiny lying lefties had no n problem with him taking a long as necessary for the vote count to come up Gore. "
Of course. WHERE there is reasonable concern, we want efforts made to get the right results. In Georgia, this year, if it's close enough to meet that state's automatic recount, for instance, we TOTALLY support a recount. We don't begrudge that.
But there is a difference between that legitimate recount and treasonous lies making dangerous and dangerously stupid false claims that there were attempts to steal the election and that Trump WON the election. That was a base, diabolical, traitorous and stupidly false claim.
What about being a decent adult citizen are you all failing to understand?
You CAN answer this: Do you truly NOT see the difference between a recount in Georgia or Florida (in 2000) when the votes were legitimately close AND between the stupidly false and traitorous claims by Trump and his useful idiots?
So, some questions to answer and clarifications to be made before you can comment here.
Another stupidly false Marshal/Trumpian/useful idiot false claim...
"What's more, four years and millions of dollars wasn't too much for you sorry sons of bitches in falsely accusing Trump of colluding with Russia when it was your peeps all along"
You failed to understand Mueller's report or reality. Mueller specifically said that his report did NOT clear Trump of collusion/criminal activity.
Do you recognize that reality?
As Mueller stated, “while this report does not conclude that the President committed a crime, it also does not exonerate him.” Mueller declined to make a “traditional prosecution decision” about obstruction of justice. Because he was bound by the Department of Justice policy that a sitting president cannot be charged with a crime, he did not even attempt to reach a legal conclusion about the facts.
Instead, he undertook to “preserve the evidence when memories were fresh and documentary materials were available,” because a president can be charged after he leaves office. In fact, out of an abundance of fairness, Mueller thought that it would be improper to even accuse Trump of committing a crime so as not to “preempt constitutional processes for addressing presidential misconduct,” meaning impeachment.
https://time.com/5610317/mueller-report-myths-breakdown/
The stupidly false and unsupported charges that the Democrats are the ones who broke laws with Russia are just that, more stupid and false unsupported charges.
Just because you REALLLY want it to be true does not make it factual.
Another possible question for you to answer. you say yourself that, I have no data to prove fraud. Very good. That is reality and I'm glad that you can recognize reality.
It is correct that neither you nor Trump have data to prove fraud. And so, when Trump alleged widespread fraud happened he was lying because he has no data to prove widespread fraud. Agreed?
Why does it not bother you that our president is sowing distrust in our election and making false claims like this that undermines confidence in the election, at least amongst those stupid enough to believe him? Why are you and conservatives not raising huge red flags about this assault on our election process?
Again, he's not saying, slow down, this election was pretty close let's be sure to count and recount. He is making actively and stupidly false claims. He is claiming that he won. This is dangerous and stupid as hell because there's a some number of useful idiots who will believe him and his lies. Can you not condemn these overt and traitorous attacks on our election process?
[from an interview with President Obama in The Atlantic:]
The threats to American democracy—and to the broader cause of freedom—are many, he said. He was withering on the subject of Donald Trump, but acknowledged that Trump himself is not the root of the issue. “I’m not surprised that somebody like Trump could get traction in our political life,” he said. “He’s a symptom as much as an accelerant. But if we were going to have a right-wing populist in this country, I would have expected somebody a little more appealing.”
Trump, Obama noted, is not exactly an exemplar of traditional American manhood. “I think about the classic male hero in American culture when you and I were growing up: the John Waynes, the Gary Coopers, the Jimmy Stewarts, the Clint Eastwoods, for that matter. There was a code … the code of masculinity that I grew up with that harkens back to the ’30s and ’40s and before that. There’s a notion that a man is true to his word, that he takes responsibility, that he doesn’t complain, that he isn’t a bully—in fact he defends the vulnerable against bullies. And so even if you are someone who is annoyed by wokeness and political correctness and wants men to be men again and is tired about everyone complaining about the patriarchy, I thought that the model wouldn’t be Richie Rich—the complaining, lying, doesn’t-take-responsibility-for-anything type of figure.”
He traces the populist shift inside the Republican Party to the election that made him president. It was Sarah Palin, John McCain’s 2008 running mate, he said, who helped unleash the populist wave: “The power of Palin’s rallies compared with McCain’s rallies—just contrast the excitement you would see in the Republican base. I think this hinted at the degree to which appeals around identity politics, around nativism, conspiracies, were gaining traction.”
The populist wave was abetted by Fox News and other right-wing media outlets, he said, and encouraged to spread by social-media companies uninterested in exploring their impact on democracy. “I don’t hold the tech companies entirely responsible,” he said, “because this predates social media. It was already there. But social media has turbocharged it. I know most of these folks. I’ve talked to them about it. The degree to which these companies are insisting that they are more like a phone company than they are like The Atlantic, I do not think is tenable. They are making editorial choices, whether they’ve buried them in algorithms or not. The First Amendment doesn’t require private companies to provide a platform for any view that is out there.”
He went on to say, “If we do not have the capacity to distinguish what’s true from what’s false, then by definition the marketplace of ideas doesn’t work. And by definition our democracy doesn’t work. We are entering into an epistemological crisis.”
Sadly, true.
"My Reality Is Different Than Yours".... because, Dan, your reality exists. And the short term horizon can be anticipated by smart people.
From the DUH department (meaning what smart people know and Craig and Marshal blithely deny):
"Murray Energy, once a symbol of American mining prowess, has become the eighth coal company in a year to file for bankruptcy protection. The move on Tuesday is the latest sign that market forces are throttling the Trump administration’s bid to save the industry.
The collapse of the Ohio-based company had long been expected as coal-fired power plants close across the country.
Its chief executive, Robert E. Murray, has been an outspoken supporter and adviser of President Trump. He had lobbied extensively for Washington to support coal-fired power plants."
I have connections who have lost or will be losing jobs in fields related to coal energy. That Trump would campaign on "saving Coal jobs" makes as much sense as campaigning to save "Horse and Buggy Jobs..." Times and needs change.
"Georgia Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger, a conservative, has been coming under fire from fellow Republicans who are furious that President-elect Joe Biden won Georgia in the 2020 presidential election. One of those Republicans is Sen. Lindsey Graham of South Carolina. And according to Raffensperger, Graham demanded to know why he isn't doing more to get absentee ballots thrown out. Graham has claimed that Raffensperger mischaracterized their conversation, but the Georgia secretary of state says that two members of his staff can back him up.
Raffensperger told CBS News, "Sen. Graham implied for us to audit the envelopes and then throw out the ballots for counties who had the highest frequency error of signatures."
And just yesterday Michigan Republican officials tried to steal the US Presidential election.
So, we have our first and thus far only proof of significant election fraud.
Three Republican officials, one a sitting chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee, making blatant attempts to erase hundreds of thousands of legal votes - disproportionately cast by black people.
They were caught. A staunch Republican Georgia Secretary of State denied Lindsey Graham. The two GOP election board officials in Michigan were forced to recant. But where are the consequences to them for interfering with an election? It's a felony. But they won't be charged, these nice white people.
Were are Marshal's ethics? Where are Craig's?
Dead long ago.
And the irony is lost on Marshal and other useful idiots. The questions are: Do the Craigs and Marshals truly not see/understand the undermining of our elections by Trump et al (perhaps because of a self-imposed partisan blindness) or do they see the attacks on our election process but don't care because it's being done on behalf of a so-called conservative (noting that Trump and his acolytes are not anywhere near true classical conservatives... just using the conservative name as part of his big con)...?
They do not see their hypocrisy. They cannot without having their world shaken violently. It isn't safe for them to see it: it's a threat to their identity - the same identity intended for you and me - steeped in a manufactured concept of whiteness necessary to practice the brutality that propped up 400 years of this nation through slavery, Jim Crow, dispossession, and denial of full citizenship.
Craig steeps himself in a hysterical tea of young people breaking glass, picking fights. He finds comfort in demonizing because he is possessed: he willfully denies the constantly hounding awareness that 400 years of brutality deserves aggressive confrontation. He cannot see how the police aid and abet white men carrying guns but shoot tear gas at demonstrators chanting for their constitutional rights.
Trump and fascist purveyors of violence achieve their aims in Craig and Marshal: Look! See how the left is violent?! Who is not after being beaten, gassed, and murdered, all against the founding laws of our nation.
Craig and Marshal- trained in the reason-killing anxiety of radical protestantism which can never find true comfort from Christ's grace - will never find comfort in a diverse America that raises the inner scream of the conscience against our inherited identity of whiteness, the brutality machine of repression.
So, they cling to the repression in order to oppress. It's the age-old story. It is who they are. Let's give thanks to god that we escaped into health and the gifts of faith, hope, and love. We live, by the grace of god, where love is the greatest of these.
States That Imposed Few Restrictions Now Have the Worst Outbreaks
"Coronavirus cases are rising in almost every U.S. state. But the surge is worst now in places where leaders neglected to keep up forceful virus containment efforts or failed to implement basic measures like mask mandates in the first place."
Craig, Marshal, and Stan are craven idiots.
Marshal continues to post unsupported false claims. Either SUPPORT the claims or admit they're not supported and not supportable.
Craig is spewing lies about Biden. Catholic bigotry. The way Craig et al reads the Bible Catholics are going to hell.
Telling me that you CAN support your false allegations is not providing data. Telling me you HAVE supported the false allegations you've made is not providing data.
Give me links that show why all these election experts in all these states are wrong when they say that Trump doesn't have the votes, links to authoritative fact-based sources.
I'm not talking about gossip. I'm not talking about what ifs. I'm not talking about conspiracy theories. I'm talking about hard data. If you want to make outlandish false claims, then you have to at least try to support them with actual data.
But given that you've already said you can't prove it, at least at one point, I don't know why you keep claiming you can. You're not making sense.
The one thing that you said right in this thread is this...
"I have no data to prove fraud."
Given that fact, and it is a fact, why do you keep insisting you can prove widespread election fraud? You can't. Just admit it clearly without these equivocations.
"On Saturday, Mr. Trump briefly participated in a virtual Group of 20 summit from the Situation Room. But he was not listed as a participant at a sideline event at the conference on “Pandemic Preparedness and Response.” Speakers at the event included Emmanuel Macron, the president of France, and Angela Merkel, Chancellor of Germany.
Instead, Mr. Trump continued the postelection weekend routine he has settled into. He sends out a tweet with a new, empty promise of “fraud” revelations and then heads to his Virginia golf course. It was the third weekend in a row that he has done so.
“Big voter fraud information coming out concerning Georgia. Stay tuned!” Mr. Trump tweeted on Saturday morning.
In reality, Georgia Republicans on Friday delivered a blow to his attempts to undo the election results."
Marshal: “I’m pretty certain I said my argument is that there is evidence of fraud and irregularities that could be enough to either give Trump the win or compel officials to refuse to certify.”
“In a scathing order, a federal judge rejected the Trump campaign’s claim of widespread improprieties with mail-in ballots, removing a major legal hurdle to certifying Joseph R. Biden Jr.’s victory there.
In a scathing order, Judge Matthew W. Brann wrote that President Trump’s campaign, which had asked him to effectively disenfranchise nearly seven million voters, should have come to court “armed with compelling legal arguments and factual proof of rampant corruption” in its efforts to essentially nullify the results of Pennsylvania’s election.
But instead, Judge Brann complained, the Trump campaign provided only “strained legal arguments without merit and speculative accusations” that were “unsupported by evidence.”
Marshal: “I’m pretty certain I said my argument is that there is evidence of fraud and irregularities that could be enough to either give Trump the win or compel officials to refuse to certify.”
The Trump legal team has had over 2 dozen lawsuits thrown out. All he’s doing is spending tax payers’ money for juvenile revenge.
No wonder he’s Marshal’s guy.
Marshal... (my paraphrase) "Trump WAS cheated. There IS evidence of massive election fraud. I COULD present it. But I won't."
This is, of course, exactly the sort of con that Trump regularly vomits. And in his defense, it fools a lot of gullible people who are taken in by this perverted corrupt con man. But it doesn't fool most people and it doesn't fool right thinking adults who know to ask, "Show me the evidence."
It doesn't fool the courts who SEE that Trump and his useful idiots don't have ANY evidence to support his claims which, as Feodor rightly notes, has led to a waste of taxpayer dollars and a huge cost of ignoring the virus that rages out of control thanks to your pervert liar.
The party is over. You can get by with useful idiots for only so long. The rest of the world, the rest of history sees Trump for the deviant con man that EVEN TRUMP says he is (read "The Art of the Deal," he describes a hedonistic, bullying, narcissist getting what he wants by abusing systems that protect rich oppressors like him). He is a sick, sick idiot and his useful idiots will be judged throughout the rest of history as idiots, at best.
Get off that trainwreck, dude. It's over.
+++++
Here's a review of "the Art of the Deal," I came across today that explains so much that comes as no surprise to rational people, but still...
"Instead of offering explicit advice on successful deal-making, the book takes readers on a tour of Donald Trump’s vulgarity, power, and aggression...
Trump comes to personify the sickness and dehumanization that is American capitalism: He cheats; he lies; he manipulates; and he seduces. Trump romanticizes the baseness of his activity, packaging it as business tips in what he calls “The Elements of the Deal.”
https://www.jacobinmag.com/2016/10/donald-trump-art-deal-tony-schwartz-real-estate/
Portrait of a Con Artist.
Yup.
Here's what I think should be an easy question for you to actually answer and answer directly, Marshal: Do you agree that Qanon is an insane conspiracy theory "group," and they are utterly not to be believed or trusted, never endorsed in any way and only condemned for their insanity and twisting of truth?
Like Craig, I've spent no time investigating Qanon. I doubt you have, either. But based on your history, I suspect they're far more reliable than you. I wonder if they also insanely delete people the way you do to twist the truth?
How is it possible to not know about Qanon?
You don't know, then, that the FBI classifies them as a potential terrorist threat?
You're not aware of the conspiracy theories they put out there? Here's one:
They make claims, without data to support them, according to Wiki...
"alleging that a cabal of Satan-worshipping pedophiles is running a global child sex-trafficking ring and plotting against US President Donald Trump, who is fighting the cabal.[2] QAnon also commonly asserts that Trump is planning a day of reckoning known as the "Storm", when thousands of members of the cabal will be arrested.
No part of the conspiracy claim is based in fact."
Emphasis on the NO PART is based in fact. None.
Now, having been informed about the FBI and about their conspiracy theories, can you agree that this stuff is crazy? And that trying to influence conservatives (as they do) to believe it is dangerous?
Does it worry you that half of Trump supporters believe this nonsense?
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2020/10/22/qanon-poll-finds-half-trump-supporters-believe-baseless-claims/3725567001/
You see, Marshal, part of the problem that people like you and Craig have is that you hyperventilate about the "evil" that BLM or Antifa are doing (or, for that matter, the "evil Democrats coordinating with the media and state election boards, both GOP and Democrat to 'steal' this election with massive voter fraud), and yet, you can never point to any data to support any of it, none of it. You have nothing.
But I can point to real plots that have been uncovered by law enforcement groups, real attempts to kill and kidnap and otherwise harm by actual conservatives associated with the literally insane/nonsensical/ridiculous militia boys or these nuts associating with Qanon and the data is there to show why they are crazy, irrational and a threat to a free Republic (even if it's a minor threat of actual harm, primarily due to their cowardice and ineptitude and just plain butt ugly stupidity... there is the threat of having HALF the GOP believing idiotic and insane false claims of this magnitude.
The modern conservative movement is emasculating themselves to please an idiot-boy-king-wannabe tyrant. We're saved primarily due to his stupidity and ineptitude and the strength of our Republic, flawed though it may be.
"How is it possible to not know about Qanon?"
I didn't say I never heard of Qanon. I said I haven't spent any time looking into it. I only know the most superficial aspects about Qanon...like you, though you probably know nothing at all.
"You don't know, then, that the FBI classifies them as a potential terrorist threat?"
Would that be Comey's FBI, or Wray's FBI? Do know what the word "potential" means? On what basis would the FBI classify them in such a way?
"They make claims, without data to support them."
Very much like you. ARE THEY YOU?????
"You're not aware of the conspiracy theories they put out there? Here's one:"
That one I've heard. I've heard it from media that seems obsessed with it. I wonder why?
"Emphasis on the NO PART is based in fact. None."
You, like many on the left who fear that Trump's legal team has the goods, seem to believe that lack of evidence being provided means a claim is false or baseless. In this day and age, the usual suspects in the media don't put in the time to truly investigate that which they don't like to hear, so I'm not impressed with you Wiki info.
"Now, having been informed about the FBI and about their conspiracy theories, can you agree that this stuff is crazy?"
Are you familiar with the adage "Truth is stranger than fiction"? At the same time, you lefties were running a few conspiracy theories of your own...such as the Russian collusion story, the quid pro quo Ukraine story (not the real one involving your boy Joey "Plugs" Biden, but rather the bullshit one attacking Trump), etc.
"And that trying to influence conservatives (as they do) to believe it is dangerous?"
Have they incited riots that destroyed blocks of cities on the pretense of racist cops, or some shit like that? You have no idea what conservatives believe, mostly because you have no idea what a conservative is.
"Does it worry you that half of Trump supporters believe this nonsense?"
Not particularly. I'm not even worried how many actually do believe it, or that what is believed is nonsense. I actually did some research (having stopped typing enough to do so) and apparently some things Q said have come to pass. I haven't gotten deep enough to learn which things, but I've also learned that some things aren't actually from Q but are purported to be, what with so many posting anonymously.
All jokes aside, it's crystal clear to me that you concern here is the potential ties to Trump that might exist regarding Q (I've also learned it's not "Qanon". There is no such thing evidently). You're wetting yourself because Q, whoever he or they may be, seems to side with Trump. That's all that matters to you. Your sick, unchristian hatred of Trump spills over to include anyone or anything even remotely favoring him.
The hypocrisy of conservative American Christianity is ungodly.
"The election of the second Roman Catholic as president of the United States should be the occasion of great celebration among his coreligionists. Not all Catholics supported Joseph Biden, of course, though about half did. On Nov. 7, the head of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops, José Gomez, archbishop of Los Angeles, congratulated Biden and Kamala Harris, and five days later so did Pope Francis. Then last week, Gomez wasn’t so sure. On Tuesday, at the end of the national meeting of the American bishops, he declared that the president-elect’s support for abortion rights presents the church with a “difficult and complex situation.”
News reports suggest that the bishops may want to deny Biden, a lifelong Catholic, access to the sacrament of Holy Communion, much the way that conservative bishops declared John Kerry, the Democratic presidential nominee in 2004, unwelcome at the communion rail in their dioceses. Gomez has set up a task force to consider the matter. No one is yet calling this a threat of excommunication, but that effectively is what the bishops are considering.
Back in 2016, the same U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops rushed to congratulate Donald Trump after his presidential victory, even before the results were certified. This year, at least one member of the conference, Bishop Joseph Strickland of Tyler, Texas, refused to acknowledge Biden as president-elect after the race was called.
To pretend that there is anything approaching moral equivalency between Joe Biden and Donald Trump, let alone to decide the matter in Trump’s favor, represents an appalling failure to exercise ethical judgment."
Marshal... "That one I've heard. I've heard it from media that seems obsessed with it. I wonder why?"
Because it's insane? Because it's dangerous? Because half of the GOP believes it, at least in part? Take your pick.
You all ignore the real threats of the widespread (not "fringe," that you all like to pretend) conspiracy theories and civil war plots by Qanon and white nationalists, but like to complain about liberals who are not a threat and who are grounded in reality.
I wonder why?
And yes, when you make wildly false and unsupported allegations about people fighting for justice, claiming they are behind murders, that sort of unsupported nonsense is the Stuff of Trump, con artists and liars, not adults and false unsupported charges will NOT stand here.
You want to make a comment that stands? Don't post false and unsupported claims. You want to make an allegation (like the election was "stolen" or that BLM has committed crimes or other stupidly false allegations)? Support them.
If you can't support your idiot lies, then don't make them. They won't stand here or with other rational adults. The majority of the US stands with BLM and recognizes that they are warriors for good and for justice. The majority of the US recognize the false and unsupported claims of you and Trump for what they are.
Lies, damned lies. Nothing more.
Marshal... some things Q said have come to pass.
The prophecies of Q come to pass?
Another idiot cultist, believing evil claims.
Remember when Marshal and Craig believed this? They’ve only grown more deplorable.
“The Fox News Channel has reached a private settlement with the parents of the slain Democratic National Committee staffer Seth Rich. The network had baselessly reported in May 2017 that Rich leaked thousands of Democratic party emails to Wikileaks during the height of the 2016 presidential campaign.
The story, reported by Fox News' Malia Zimmerman and retracted seven days later, also suggested without any evidence that Democrats might have been linked to the killing of the 27-year-old Rich, a crime that has not been solved to this day. A Fox News spokesperson tells NPR that Zimmerman is no longer with the network.”
Marshal keeps commenting and keeps not providing support. What's telling is that he'll say he won't provide support because I'll only delete it... and yet on his own page where he's talked about these matters, he's not provided support.
There is no support for the damned lie that "Trump won" or that "the Democrats are stealing the election" because they're damned lies. You don't and won't provide support because it's not reality and thus, there is no support.
We can all see this. Hell, even Trump can see this. Guiliani has already admitted he was lying about the "stolen election," it's over. Your corrupt idiot pervert has lost and his lies are just a further attack on this nation. Move on.
It's not like there aren't manifold diagnoses of Marshal, Craig, Stan, and the fake bagpiper.
"While these cities have been prospering, places where fewer people have college degrees have been spiraling down: flatter incomes, decimated families, dissolved communities. In 1972, people without college degrees were nearly as happy as those with college degrees. Now those without a degree are far more unhappy about their lives.
"People need a secure order to feel safe. Deprived of that, people legitimately feel cynicism and distrust, alienation and anomie. This precarity has created, in nation after nation, intense populist backlashes against the highly educated folks who have migrated to the cities and accrued significant economic, cultural and political power. Will Wilkinson of the Niskanen Center calls this the “Density Divide.” It is a bitter cultural and political cold war.
In the fervor of this enmity, millions of people have come to detest those who populate the epistemic regime, who are so distant, who appear to have it so easy, who have such different values, who can be so condescending. Millions not only distrust everything the “fake news” people say, but also the so-called rules they use to say them.
People in this precarious state are going to demand stories that will both explain their distrust back to them and also enclose them within a safe community of believers. The evangelists of distrust, from Donald Trump to Alex Jones to the followers of QAnon, rose up to give them those stories and provide that community. Paradoxically, conspiracy theories have become the most effective community bonding mechanisms of the 21st century.
For those awash in anxiety and alienation, who feel that everything is spinning out of control, conspiracy theories are extremely effective emotional tools. For those in low status groups, they provide a sense of superiority: I possess important information most people do not have. For those who feel powerless, they provide agency: I have the power to reject “experts” and expose hidden cabals. As Cass Sunstein of Harvard Law School points out, they provide liberation: If I imagine my foes are completely malevolent, then I can use any tactic I want.
Under Trump, the Republican identity is defined not by a set of policy beliefs but by a paranoid mind-set. He and his media allies simply ignore the rules of the epistemic regime and have set up a rival trolling regime. The internet is an ideal medium for untested information to get around traditional gatekeepers, but it is an accelerant of the paranoia, not its source. Distrust and precarity, caused by economic, cultural and spiritual threat, are the source.
What to do? You can’t argue people out of paranoia. If you try to point out factual errors, you only entrench false belief. The only solution is to reduce the distrust and anxiety that is the seedbed of this thinking. That can only be done first by contact, reducing the social chasm between the members of the epistemic regime and those who feel so alienated from it. And second, it can be done by policy, by making life more secure for those without a college degree.
Rebuilding trust is, obviously, the work of a generation."
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/26/opinion/republican-disinformation.html?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage
Craig turns a blind eye and Marshal gouges out his so as not to see.
“President Donald Trump's campaign has raised at least $150 million after Election Day after sending out hundreds of emails asking for support as part of Trump's hopeless mission to contest President-elect Joe Biden's win, according to Monday reports from The Washington Post and The New York Times.
In reality, only a small fraction of small-dollar donations is being used for Trump's legal challenges, with the vast majority instead being put into an account the president can use to fund his post-White House political career.”
This "observation" on the election from Craig is classic...
"I just saw a headline saying that Barr didn’t think there was enough voter fraud to have changed the outcome of the election.
Personally, I suspect that this will be the final conclusion."
Funny stuff.
It's like someone saying...
"My son's pre-K basketball team is playing the LA Lakers tomorrow.
Personally, I think that the odds are good that my kid's team won't win..."
Some comments are so tremendously outstandingly stupid that you just don't need to say them. The ONLY reason to say nonsense like this is because you're trying to aid Trump and his useful idiots in convincing the majority of the nation that LIKELY the election was stolen from Trump. That, or you're just dumb as a brick and not able to understand reality.
They themselves know they’re corrupt. Marshal is with the hoodwinked and bamboozled. 😂😂😂
“President Trump has discussed with advisers whether to grant pre-emptive pardons to his children, to his son-in-law and to his personal lawyer Rudolph W. Giuliani, and talked with Mr. Giuliani about pardoning him as recently as last week, according to two people briefed on the matter.
Mr. Trump has told others that he is concerned that a Biden Justice Department might seek retribution against the president by targeting the oldest three of his five children — Donald Trump Jr., Eric Trump and Ivanka Trump — as well as Ms. Trump’s husband, Jared Kushner, a White House senior adviser.”
And they want to make money off of pardons.
Lock them up!
“The Justice Department is investigating a potential crime related to funneling money to the White House or related political committee in exchange for a presidential pardon, according to court records unsealed Tuesday in federal court.
The case is the latest legal twist in the waning days of President Donald Trump's administration after several of his top advisers have been convicted of federal criminal charges and as the possibility rises of Trump giving pardons to those who've been loyal to him.
The disclosure is in 20 pages of partially redacted documents made public by the DC District Court on Tuesday afternoon. The records show Chief Judge Beryl Howell's review in August of a request from prosecutors to access documents obtained in a search as part of a bribery-for-pardon investigation.”
The crazy runs deep. Craig's latest comments include...
Craig... "I've heard you, elsewhere, say that all claims of things like "racism" or "sexism" should be taken seriously, yet somehow you selectively apply that standard."
I responded:
Tell me that you're not being serious? Do you truly, truly, in your heart of hearts not understand the difference!?
Let me explain it to you and I'll use small words.
Rape, sexual abuse, racism, attacks against women and black people... these ALL actually happen and happened. We have a very real and ugly history of all these things going on, continuing until today.
On the other hand, we do not have a problem with widespread election fraud.
It's the difference between a space unicorn and a horse. One is real and the other is made up.
That y'all don't understand the difference is part of the problem. I don't know. God bless your little hearts.
Open your eyes. Read. Educate yourselves. I don't know what else to tell you.
Lord, have mercy.
Craig's need for white male control is born from the radical protestant/slave trade based economy that built the US society just as much as the Enlightenment tool of reason in making a community democracy.
So, for Craig to escape his guilt, he needs to go big on the tool of small reason and blind himself to a moral view of community.
So, just lately, he wants to prosecute Michael Brown. Why? Because 1) drilling down with the small tool of reason, he can lob unanswerable castings of what went down. Small tools of reason say we have to respect authority. And then, 2) he can thereby hide from the big tool of reasoning that protests the huge pile of dead black bodies, including Michael Brown and admit what any Christian - and other faithful witness including the humanitarian - must admit: we have a deadly, nation-wide cancer on our policing.
Likewise, on the beginning of your debate, he reads a headline (only) that non-technically uses the word, fraud, and tries to drill down with small bore reasoning to claim that - objectively - we have a problem with fraud in our election process.
And yes, we do. As a matter of fact.
Until one lifts ones' eyes to human life actually going on. Then, non-racist, non-bigoted, non-misogynist Christian love understands that evil is getting bogged down on inconsequential effects of fraud on our elections (and can therefore be delegated to a team [as it already is]) and refusing to engage on the true, communal moral issues of our time.
Craig and Marshal and Stan cannot do that. Because the communal moral issues of out time impugn our acting out of white supremacy. The identify with white supremacy. So in the psychological need to repress awareness of their identity, they rhetorically erase your raising those values with an arsenal of irrational defense moves: dodge, diversion, deny, disassembling, prevaricate, myth-make, lie, openly double down on the lie... delete and in my case, block.
The world is too much for them because they grip an ancient book for faith: and ancient book as read by white supremacists two hundred years ago. As read, in other words, by those who needed to defend their guilt. God will save. My own participation in my holiness is just confessing with my lips and being baptized. All good.
We’ve just entered the equivalent of 9/11 deaths every day for a week.
Trump has said nothing, has nothing to say.
And Craig and Marshal have the same callous Christ killing nature.
Case in point, Dan: Craig didn't think that choking out Greg Floyd's life over 9 minutes while he lay on the street was murder.
But he objects that those of us "woke" people didn't pause in our protest marches long enough to castigate democrats who wore black face in college 30 and 40 years ago.
When you've killed off your conscience for the sake of whiteness like Craig, Marshal, and Stan have, you have to make it up to seem normal.
And it comes out paranormal: black face decades old >sin than murdering George Floyd.
And for that matter, Craig and Marshal have defended Kyle Rittenhouse. NO crying out about the murders of Anthony Huber and Joseph Rosenbaum>
Craig and Marshal are soul dead animals.
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