Magnificat

 My soul doth magnify the Lord.
And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.
For God hath regarded the lowliness of this handmaiden
For behold, from henceforth all generations
shall call me blessed.

God hath scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts.

God hath put down the mighty from their seat
and hath exalted the humble and meek.

God hath filled the hungry with good things
and the rich he hath sent empty away.

God, remembering mercy hath helped God's oppressed servant, Israel...
Glory be to God.

As it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be
world without end. Amen.

~Mary, the mother of Jesus

 

God has put down the rich and mighty, and lifted up the humble and poor. Happy Holidays, remember the reason for the season ("For I have come to preach GOOD NEWS to the POOR..." ~Jesus, who learned well from his mother)

Life In Three Acts

There was a play staged

by a forest primeval

I had a bit part

I served as the stage manager

in a play within a play

put on for my own benefit

I was also the audience

I wrote the plot

which included a twist ending

which I did not see coming

turns out, I was not

the author of the play

after all, just a patsy

Life, in three acts

beginning with the denouement

they'll never see it coming

Rosalynn Carter

The world has lost two great women in the last few weeks: My mother and Rosalynn Carter. She and Jimmy Carter have shown by their lives, by their actions, by their words and by their policies what it means to be a good person and a wise leader. Their basic human decency and integrity were far and away unmatched in modern politics (for at least the past 100 years and maybe ever). They have been exemplary followers of Jesus and we can know this because we are known by our fruit, as Jesus taught.

Rest in peace, Mrs Carter.

Mrs Carter:

"The best way to enhance freedom in other lands is to demonstrate here that our democratic system is worthy of emulation."

"I believe that one of the most important things to learn in life is that you can make a difference in your community no matter who you are or where you live."

"People with mental problems are our neighbors. They are members of our congregations, members of our families; they are everywhere in this country. If we ignore their cries for help, we will be continuing to participate in the anguish from which those cries for help come. A problem of this magnitude will not go away. Because it will not go away, and because of our spiritual commitments, we are compelled to take action."

"There are only four kinds of people in the world - those who have been caregivers, those who are caregivers, those who will be caregivers and those who will need caregivers."

"True success is not determined by material possessions, but by the impact we have on others."

"It's not enough to simply talk about the issues. We must take action and work towards tangible solutions."

Memories of Mom...

 Mary Helen Basham Trabue, December 24, 1930 - October 26, 2023

How can she keep from singing?

The Golden Rule: If You Have the Gold, Maybe Give it Away..?

 I heard another story about this line of research that's been going around for a long time - that the data shows in multiple studies that the easiest and most effective way to assist the poor is just to give them money, no strings attached. From NPR:

The researchers identified about 65,000 households across an impoverished, rural area of Kenya and then randomly assigned them to various groups: those who got no help from GiveDirectly and a "treatment group" of about 10,500 families who got a one-time cash grant of about $1,000.

"That's a really big income transfer," notes Miguel. "About three-quarters of the income of the [recipient] households for a year on average." It also represented a flood of cash into the wider communities where they lived. "The cash transfers were something like 17% of total local income — local GDP," says Miguel.

Eighteen months on, the researchers found that, as expected, the families who got the money used it to buy lots more food and other essentials.

But that was just the beginning.

"That money goes to local businesses," says Miguel. "They sell more. They generate more revenue. And then eventually that gets passed on into labor earnings for their workers."

The net effect: Every dollar in cash aid increased total economic activity in the area by $2.60.

But were those income gains simply washed out by a corresponding rise in inflation?

"We actually find there's a little bit of price inflation, but it's really small," says Miguel. "It's much less than 1%."

The study — recently unveiled at a conference of the National Bureau of Economic Research and soon to be available on its website — also uncovered some evidence for why prices didn't go up: A lot of local businesses reported that before the cash infusion they weren't that busy.

"They may be a shopkeeper that doesn't really have that many customers [because] it's a poor area. They may be someone working at a grain mill that only has one or two customers an hour."

So when they suddenly get more customers, they don't have to take extra steps like hiring more workers that would drive up their costs — and their prices. In economic parlance, there was enough "slack" in the local economy to absorb the injection of cash.

====

Read more:

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2019/12/02/781152563/researchers-find-a-remarkable-ripple-effect-when-you-give-cash-to-poor-families

https://www.oecd.org/dev/pgd/46240619.pdf

https://www.rienner.com/uploads/553a9642e0c0a.pdf

Like Refugees Escaping

Three hundred years ago

religious zealots wanted to kill my family

they escaped from Montauban, France

on the River Tarn

Six years ago

I returned

a lost son of Montauban

and I walked along the Tarn

and gathered stones

skipping them across the surface

like refugees escaping

This is Not Normal

Just remember
if anyone should try to convince you otherwise
go with the obvious meaning
what you see with your own eyes

This is not normal
This is not good
This is not acceptable
This is not a witchhunt
This is not the White Man's Persecution

This is a man who behaves obviously, overtly bad
publicly
who by all evidence
is psychotically narcissistic and
devoid of morality or decency

This is just what it seems like

A bad man
(probably damaged by a privileged, dysfunctional upbringing)
who got in trouble
because of his own actions
and is being brought down
by justice officers from across the political spectrum
based upon evidence from and testimony of
his own allies and former allies
conservatives all

History will record it just that way
because that is what has happened

Don't believe anyone who even hints otherwise
The data in the real world doesn't support it
 

He Was Lost

He was lost
in a late summer blizzard
and all the green
had turned to white
and all the darkness
was kept
as a balancing scale
neither too much
nor too little

Two Square Inches

I found two square inches

in the middle of a medium-sized woods

in the middle of a fairly large city

and those two square inches contained

more beauty and

more information and

more details to explore

than I could have possibly imagined

or have time to finish examining

And then

I turned around and found

another two square inches

that was filled with

infinity

and I wondered what hope

I could possibly have to ever

understand and comprehend

more than

two square inches

And so

I embraced grace

rather than understanding

 

Pitting Paul Against Jesus and... the Gospel?

Stan writes today to once again pit Paul against Jesus. And as always, I'm not picking on Stan and don't want to talk about Stan. I'm talking about the point he is raising and the questions he's ignoring... as has been my experience when talking with more conservative Christians. Stan says...

Despite the Pauline Dispensationalists who claim that Jesus taught a different gospel than Paul or the Social Justice Warriors that argue that Jesus taught a "good news for the poor" rather than "saved by faith" gospel, it appears that Jesus and Paul taught the same gospel: repent and believe and you will have eternal life.

A few points:

1. Folks like me do NOT believe in a "good news for the poor" rather than "saved by faith" gospel" - we believe in salvation by God's grace and we note that Jesus said he'd come to preach this good news specifically, literally to the poor and marginalized. That is, this salvation of grace begins with the poor and marginalized.

2. I'm noting that Stan found nothing in Jesus' words saying anything about the evangelical belief in a penal substitutionary atonement theory as taught by some human traditions.

3. And, as always, I wonder (and get no answers other than waving away the questions or saying we shouldn't take THESE words literally)... What do you all do with Jesus' continued emphasis on a good news for the poor and marginalized that came up so frequently and with such emphasis in Jesus' words? Ignore them?

WHY did Jesus say he'd come to preach good news to the poor and marginalized specifically?

What about that good news of "repentance and faith" (PLUS the blood sacrifice/atonement/angry god theory) is somehow good news for the poor?

4. Here's the thing: I can point to the ways in which a Gospel of Grace that more aligns with Jesus' teachings is good news specifically for the poor and marginalized. In the salvation by God's grace, where we have a loving God who loves the whole world and wants to see the whole world saved and who BEGINS that salvation of grace with/for the poor and marginalized who have traditionally been ignored and excluded, it IS good news for them in the following ways:

a. They are specifically INCLUDED. Not told they're filthy and unclean, unfit to be loved by God. They are lovingly invited, welcomed and greeted to the dinner table.

b. When we're following Christ and the early church's examples, that means, among other things, that they're literally invited to come and eat. That IS good news specifically for the poor and marginalized who have been ignored at best and hated and blamed at worst... they're welcome AND there's food. That's good news for the hungry and the lonely, abandoned, forgotten and oppressed.

c. They/we are welcome not JUST to a dinner, but to be part of a beloved community, one that begins with grace, love and welcome. And there's real power in that Church of God that is a beloved community, welcoming in grace and that's a real difference for the literally poor, sick, foreigner and oppressed. There's some level of protection in that community, there's healing in that community in a way that isn't there in the individualistic, god eat dog world and that is especially true and important for the poor and marginalized.

Do you see how it's reasonably literal good news for the poor, this doctrine of welcoming, loving grace? That, as opposed to, "IF God decides to 'gift' you with 'faith,' then you can be saved and if not, tough luck for you - poor and rich and in between!" That's the "good news" of the random one-in-a-million lottery winner, not for the poor and marginalized... I always wonder if they can see how that would not be literal good news for the poor and marginalized (and truly, it's not good news for most of humanity, at least amongst those evangelicals who insist that "the bible" "teaches" that God will send most of us to burn in hell forever!)?

It's a good and important question, though, "What Gospel did Jesus preach?" And I am certainly down with repenting and believing in Jesus/God... that would be part of a good news of grace, where we are welcomed and welcome to repent and forgive. But as you well know, it's not merely believing in God - even the demons do that, right? So simple "belief" is not what Jesus was speaking of, right? I'd say that it's affirming/accepting Jesus' WAY which is the way of grace which is, as Jesus notes, good news for the poor.

Can you see, at least, how some of us find that internally consistent with Jesus' literal words and rationally compelling?

For what it's worth, other times this issue has been raised and ignored...

https://throughthesewoods.blogspot.com/2015/08/different-gospels.html

https://throughthesewoods.blogspot.com/2018/09/defining-gospel.html

https://throughthesewoods.blogspot.com/2022/01/the-gospel-of-jesus-vs-evangelicalism.html

For All the Wise Women in my Life

I've attended church

ALL my life

I've heard at least
(AT LEAST)
an average of one sermon

a week

not counting all the sermons lived out

in the lives of people I admire

60 years x 52 weeks each year

I've heard in surplus of

three thousand

one hundred

and twenty

sermons preached

no doubt

by dozens or hundreds of preachers

For the first ~half of my life

all those preachers would have been men

For the second ~half of my life

almost all those preachers would have been women

(including some transgender women)

I can say

with complete and utter confidence that

FAR and away

not even close

in any way

whatsoever

the very best sermons I've heard

the best preachers and teachers I've heard

the most compelling prophets and

words of wisdom I've heard

have been from

women

Period

And so

if it happens that there are some

men

who believe that women

can't teach

preach

be prophets calling down holy fire

and who try to stop words of wisdom

from the wisest and strongest

well

they are damned fools

End of my poor sermon

A Woman could have preached it better

Woke Up This Mornin with My Mind Stayed on Freedom

 "In June 1961, Reverend Robert Wesby (c. 1927-1988) of Aurora, Illinois, created "I Woke Up This Morning with My Mind Stayed On Freedom" while spending time inHinds County, Mississippi's jail as a Freedom Rider. That autumn, 114 students sang the song at the Burglund High School Walk Out and march to McComb, Mississippi, city hall.

The song spread and became part of the civil rights movement, being one of the most notable pieces among many others. The song is referred to by Pete Seeger in his 1989 book Everybody Says Freedom. It falls under the folk music genre, which was popular in the 1930s and 1940s and was revived in the 1960s during the civil rights movement. Music and singing were an integral part of the movement, many songs being adapted from earlier religious songs."

Many thanks to those heroes who went before.

Well I woke up this morning with my mind stayed on freedom
Woke up this morning with my mind stayed on freedom
Woke up this morning with my mind stayed on freedom
Hallelu (Hallelu)
Hallelu (Hallelu)
Hallelujah


Oh well I'm walking and talking with my mind stayed on freedom
Oh yes I'm walking and talking with my mind stayed on freedom
I said I'm walking and talking with my mind stayed on freedom
Hallelu (Hallelu)
Hallelu (Hallelu)
Hallelujah

New Days Lyrics, by Amanda Gorman

Cowards in Florida are banning books. Shame on them. One of the latest is a poetry book by Amanda Gorman. Shame on them. If you're opposed to powerful words of human liberty, you are free not to read it, but shame on those right wing parents and politicians who abuse their power to try to prevent others from reading words that they fear. 

Spread her powerful words. Let freedom ring in the backwards hearts of some Floridians!

May this be the day
We come together.
Mourning, we come to mend,
Withered, we come to weather,
Torn, we come to tend,
Battered, we come to better.
Tethered by this year of yearning,
We are learning
That though we weren’t ready for this,
We have been readied by it.
We steadily vow that no matter
How we are weighed down,
We must always pave a way forward.

This hope is our door, our portal.
Even if we never get back to normal,
Someday we can venture beyond it,
To leave the known and take the first steps.
So let us not return to what was normal,
But reach toward what is next.

What was cursed, we will cure.
What was plagued, we will prove pure.
Where we tend to argue, we will try to agree,
Those fortunes we forswore, now the future we foresee,
Where we weren’t aware, we’re now awake;
Those moments we missed
Are now these moments we make,
The moments we meet,
And our hearts, once all together beaten,
Now all together beat.

Come, look up with kindness yet,
For even solace can be sourced from sorrow.
We remember, not just for the sake of yesterday,
But to take on tomorrow.

We heed this old spirit,
In a new day’s lyric,
In our hearts, we hear it:
For auld lang syne, my dear,
For auld lang syne.
Be bold, sang Time this year,
Be bold, sang Time,
For when you honor yesterday,
Tomorrow ye will find.
Know what we’ve fought
Need not be forgot nor for none.
It defines us, binds us as one,
Come over, join this day just begun.
For wherever we come together,
We will forever overcome.

Jesus, Paul and the Beloved Community and Concern for "The Least of These..."

In a post at Craig's blog, he suggested I was looking at one verse (Jesus saying he'd come to preach good news to the poor and marginalized) and ignored the rest of the Bible. But indeed, as I've made clear, I'm looking at the ENTIRETY of the Bible, Genesis to Revelation, and seeing concern for the poor and marginalized as either THE or at least ONE of the most emphasized points, one of the most consistent themes. That and the nature of God's Realm (or if you prefer, God's kingdom) which just circles back around to God's realm is where the poor and marginalized are welcomed and protected.

And, as noted, the poor and marginalized are SPECIFICALLY cited by Jesus as WHO his Gospel was for and WHY he had come. When John questioned if Jesus was the One, Jesus said, "Look, I'm preaching the gospel to the poor." And on and on he went and on and on the bible goes. Perhaps you missed it?

I also look at Jesus actually sharing and offering The Gospel to people who were NOT in the right groups.

Well, of course, I've never said that the gospel was ONLY for the poor. Indeed, I've repeatedly insisted that this is NOT the case. Just that Jesus notes that his gospel STARTS with the poor and marginalized, and others are invited to join. Biblically speaking, throughout the Bible. You've read it, right?

Craig further suggested I was ignoring Paul (Side Note: Often, it seems religious conservatives pit Paul against Jesus and interpret Jesus through the lens of Paul's teaching, rather than the other way around - bad form, says I.)

Strangely enough, when Jesus commissioned Paul the right groups were never mentioned, and Paul also preached The Gospel to people of all demographic groups.

Says Craig. And yes, Paul doesn't seem as overtly and consistently concerned about or inclusive of the poor, AND YET, we must remember to understand and interpret Paul through the words and lens of Jesus and not try to make Jesus subservient to either Paul, or modern conservative notions of what Paul was saying.

Indeed, let's remember that when Paul was consulting with the elder apostles and leaders of the church (in Galatians 2) he noted...

they (Peter, James, John) recognized that I had been entrusted with the task of
preaching the gospel to the uncircumcised,
just as Peter had been to the circumcised.

And WHO were these circumcised and uncircumcised people they were preaching to? The high-falutin' rich and powerful? Or the regular folk... people who may have often been quite poor? Do you know?

...For God, who was at work in Peter as an apostle to the circumcised,
was also at work in me as an apostle to the Gentiles.
James, Cephas and John, those esteemed as pillars,
gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship...

When??

...when they recognized the grace given to me.
They agreed that we should go to the Gentiles, and they to the circumcised.

ALL they asked was...

Was WHAT? Wait for it...

...was that we should
continue to remember the poor,
the very thing I had been eager to do all along.

Seems like the apostles recognized siding with the poor and marginalized was CORE - the one thing that should not be forgotten (as they had actually listened to Jesus) AND Paul was totally in agreement with that. "Of course!" he said. "THE VERY thing I WAS EAGER TO DO ALL ALONG!!"

As one traditional Christian website (them proud boys over at Ligonier!) helps illustrate...

Paul’s readiness is not empty bravado, for during his ministry he frequently exhorted the Gentile churches to help out the poor believers in Judea (Acts 24:17; Rom. 15:25–27; 1 Cor. 16:1–4)...

Giving to the poor is also, in a small way, an imitation of God. Our Creator gives eternal life to those who rely on Him alone, and our gifts can help provide physical life to those who have no finances on which they can depend.

Everyone who claims the name of Christ has the duty to help those who cannot feed themselves (James 1:27). Let us do what we can to make our churches the first places needy people, and needy Christians especially, can find help.

https://www.ligonier.org/learn/devotionals/remembering-poor

And Paul, along with Jesus, is keen on warning against the trappings of wealth...

For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evils.
It is through this craving that some have
wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many pangs.

And...

As for the rich in this present age,
charge them not to be haughty,
nor to set their hopes on the uncertainty of riches,
but on God, who richly provides us with everything to enjoy.
They are to do good, to be rich in good works,
to be generous and ready to share, thus
storing up treasure for themselves as a good foundation for the future,
so that they may take hold of that which is truly life.

1 Tim 6

And again, emphasizing how sharing with/welcoming the poor is just to be expected...

Let the thief no longer steal, but rather let him labor,
doing honest work with his own hands...

Why? Because there's a line in the scripture that says "don't steal..."? No.

so that he may have something to share with anyone in need.

Eph 4

Remember this:
Whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and
whoever sows generously will also reap generously.
Each of you should give what you have decided in your heart to give,
not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.
And God is able to bless you abundantly, so that in all things at all times,
having all that you need, you will abound in every good work.

As it is written:

“They have freely scattered their gifts to the poor;
their righteousness endures forever.”

2 Cor 9

Paul apparently thought that Psalmist there quoted though that their righteousness would be clear and endure forever AS they shared with the poor.

Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good.
Be devoted to one another in love

As an aside: WHO are they being devoted to? THE BELOVED. The Beloved Community of the Church. As you all like to note (when talking about tenets VERY loosely connected to the bible such as "inerrancy" or "penal substitution theories of atonement"), the exact phrase doesn't have to be mentioned, as long as it's clearly there. THE BELOVED COMMUNITY OF GOD is clearly, directly, indisputably in the bible. IT IS perfectly clear, if you're not choosing to ignore it. Continuing...

Be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, faithful in prayer.
Share with the Lord’s people who are in need.
Practice hospitality...

Live in harmony with one another.
Do not be proud, but
be willing to associate with people of low position.

Rom 12

If you count Paul as the author of Hebrews, there's this...

Keep on loving one another as brothers and sisters.

There's that damned loving beloved community again, EVEN IF he doesn't use that term (Craig had objected to King and others using the term Beloved Community to refer to the Realm/Kingdom of God).

Do not forget to show hospitality to strangers,
for by so doing some people have shown hospitality to angels without knowing it.
Continue to remember those in prison as if you were together with them in prison,
and those who are mistreated as if you yourselves were suffering.

Echoing Jesus' "the least of these" teaching. Paul (or the author of Hebrews, whichever) DID learn from Jesus, too, after all.

Keep your lives free from the love of money and
be content with what you have...

Heb 13

Continuing with the Epistles of Paul...

Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction;
whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

WHOEVER sows - NOT from a desire to pleas the flesh, but to please God - WILL reap eternal life, says Paul. Why? Good works? No! Because they have embraced God's grace as is evidenced by their actions. Continuing..

Let us not become weary in doing good,
for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.
Therefore, as we have opportunity,
let us do good to all people,
especially to those who belong to the family of believers.

Gal 6

we want you to know
about the grace
that God has given the Macedonian churches.
In the midst of a very severe trial,
their overflowing joy and their extreme poverty welled up in rich generosity.
For I testify that they gave as much as they were able,
and even beyond their ability. Entirely on their own,
they urgently pleaded with us for the privilege of
sharing in this service to the Lord’s people.

2 Cor 8

That grace demonstrated in sharing with the poor, even FROM the poor.

And I could go on. Paul may not have emphasized working with and for the poor and marginalized as much as Jesus or the prophets or Jesus' mother or James... but that same theme is THERE in Paul's writings for those who aren't closing their eyes.

Only, they asked us to remember the poor, the very thing I was eager to do.

Indeed. It's almost like Paul and the apostles agreed with Jesus that this grace of siding/allying with the poor and marginalized was central to the Gospel which Jesus said he'd come to preach to the poor and marginalized.

How Is This Even an Option?

 How is this Biden border policy - like the Trump policy before it - even an option? I can't see how it's even marginally legal. According to an expert on refugee law:

Is the policy legal?

In 2019, the Trump administration proposed a rule very similar to that put forth by Biden, prohibiting asylum for migrants who did not first apply in countries of transit. The courts struck down the policy for violating the 1980 Refugee Act, which guarantees the right of all migrants who reach the United States to apply for asylum.

A bipartisan Congress passed the Refugee Act to bring the U.S. into compliance with its international obligations under the U.N.‘s 1951 Refugee Convention and its 1967 Protocol, which prohibit returning refugees to any country where their lives or freedom would be threatened.

In striking down the Trump-era rule, the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals pointed out that the Refugee Act is very specific about the circumstances under which the government can deny asylum for failure to apply in a transit country. Under the act’s “safe third country” provision, that can happen only if the transit country is safe and has both a robust asylum system and a formal treaty with the United States agreeing to safe third-country status. The court found the Trump administration lacked all three conditions for imposing such a ban.

The Biden rule is somewhat different from Trump’s. It does not apply to individuals who schedule an asylum appointment at ports of entry through the CBP One app.

But this does not make the policy lawful. The Refugee Act expressly permits asylum seekers to access protection anywhere along the border – not just at ports of entry. And it does not require appointments to be made in advance.

In addition, CBP One has been plagued with significant technical problems, preventing many from even making appointments, and has raised serious equity and privacy concerns.

And more importantly, there is no getting around the fact that most countries of transit neither are safe for migrants nor have functioning asylum systems.

=========

This is just wrong and I don't understand anyone going along with it. Seeking asylum is a basic human right.

Sinning Babies is Biblical... Where?

Craig asked me...

DO WE SIN BECAUSE WE ARE SINNERS, OR ARE WE SINNERS BECAUSE WE SIN?

I'm relatively sure I've answered this question multiple times but I'm glad to do so again, directly and clearly. It's an easy question to answer:

Maybe I'm a simple man, but I think
a killer is one who kills,
a cheater is one who cheats and
a sinner is one who sins.

Period. As simple as that. We are sinners WHEN we sin. Before we sin, we are literally, by definition, NOT sinners. Which is why infants are not sinners.

Biblically speaking, "sinners" are ones who miss the mark, who fall short of the target. Here again, what "target" is it that infants can possibly fall short of? Trying to apply the term "sinner" to a newborn is just not rational (or biblical) on the face of it, biblically or just speaking from standard English (and I'm relatively this is true for all languages).

Do you see how this is at the very least a rational understanding - That those who DO NOT engage in sin ARE NOT sinners?

Craig also asked...

I fail to see how it's possible to take "conceived in sin" (or other similar scriptural language) and somehow conclude that what scripture REALLY means is "Born 100% free from any sin or any nature to sin".

1. Is it not possible that it could be figurative, to make a point or for some other reason? Why not?

2. That passage - "conceived in sin" - is from ONE place in the Bible... Psalm 51, which also says:

"Wash away all my iniquity and cleanse me from my sin."

Do you think that the ONLY way to understand this line is literally.. that God literally uses soap and water and washes away sin?

3. That passage also includes this from David (who is the one speaking, confessing his actual great sin of killing a husband to bed down his wife):

"Against you, you only, have I sinned and done what is evil in your sight;"

Does this mean literally that David did NOT sin against Bathsheeba's husband, who he had killed? That he didn't sin against his nation for abusing his power? MUST that line also be ONLY taken literally?

4. AFTER uttering those two lines, then David said, of himself:

"Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me."

David is speaking of himself and only of himself, literally, in that passage. Does that mean we should only take it literally about David, OR should you make it figurative and say that David was speaking of all humanity, although he literally isn't? If so, why?

5. Conversely, another place that says something similar is Psalms 58 (which is addressed SPECIFICALLY and literally to oppressive, unjust rulers):

"The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray from birth, speaking lies."

Do we take this literally... that the ONLY way to understand this line is that newborns are literally speaking lies? That's observably false, we can agree on that reality, correct? Why should we take the line about "estranged from the womb" literally but not the clearly figurative "infants speaking lies..."?

Also, literally, it isn't speaking of all humanity but only "the wicked," in a passage written specifically to oppressive leaders (which again, is why it's important to understand the prominence of specifically oppression of the poor and marginalized in biblical teachings).
=====

Craig...

I fail to see how it's possible to take "conceived in sin" (or other similar scriptural language) and somehow conclude that what scripture REALLY means is "Born 100% free from any sin or any nature to sin".

So, given that there are only TWO places that say something pretty close to "born in sin," or "born as a liar" and given that LITERALLY the main passage you're quoting is literally speaking of David, why is it not possible that David is being figurative or, somehow, speaking ONLY of himself? Why is it not exceedingly rational that David was feeling overwhelmingly guilty for murdering a man to bed his wife and so he moaned and berated himself exceedingly? This is a common human reaction to being caught in great wrong-doing. On what basis MUST we assume that David was trying to say this was a reality for ALL newborn babies (or even for himself)? Because it's what you're used to thinking?

The more I read it, the less rational, less biblical it seems. At the very least, can you see how others would find this opinion of yours to NOT be a very biblically deep or rational way of viewing this passage?

Is it possible that because you've grown up in religious traditions that REALLY emphasize this point, that it's hard for you to view it any other way, even though it's not an exceptionally biblical point of view to take?

Or consider this: Ezekiel says...

You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created,
till unrighteousness was found in you.

That passage, for what it's worth, was literally written to one king, who turned out to be a bad man engaging in oppression. But that bad man, according to Ezekiel's pronouncement, was BLAMELESS until he did wrong. (And as an aside, some conservative types say that the passage is a figurative reference to "the devil/Satan..." which would be saying that even SATAN was blameless until he did wrong!)

Or consider this, from Jesus:

“Let the little children come to me and do not hinder them,
for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven.”

If you take the ONE line in the Bible "We are born in sin..." literally because, well, it's there (albeit, literally referring specifically to David who had committed a great crime)... WHY not take this ONE line literally, when it's coming from Jesus, speaking apparently of literal children?

All of that to say that, while you personally don't understand why we shouldn't take this passage from David sort of literally (well, not the part about him speaking specifically of himself - THAT part we should make figuratively applicable to ALL of humanity, but the single line, ripped from context, "born in sin," THAT we should take literally - sort of - to mean that babies are sinners), that you personally don't understand why we should interpret it the way you interpret it, that this is not a compelling reason to agree with your interpretation?

Craig...

I'm compelled to align myself with what scripture says, not with what you say.

Literally, what you INTERPRET/READ INTO scripture what YOU THINK makes sense TO YOU. Since nowhere - not one single line on one single page in the Bible - does it say that newborns are sinners. NOT ONE LINE, NOT ONE TIME.

Can we agree on that basic literal reality?

A Loving God in the Hands of Angry Sinners

I've said it before and I'll say it again: I've become increasingly progressive and liberal NOT because I read a lot of liberal, anti-conservative material, but because I was raised within, listen to and read the arguments of extreme conservative white Christians. (And I need to cite specifically "white Christians" because conservative black Christians often don't hold to the same theology as conservative white Christians).

Take the "sin nature" of humanity. These conservatives assure me we are all - ALL of humanity, right down to our newborns! - evil humans intent on rebellion against all that is good and decent and of God.

I don't think they understand how shocking a claim this is to a large portion of humanity - that even newborn babies are not innocent of sin, of having a "sin nature," and that this "sin nature" is so bad, so evil, that even newborns are "deserving" of an eternity of torture for having this "sin nature."

Now, most of them, I believe, will hedge their bets and say that God will probably give a pass to babies and children up to a certain age, not because their "sin nature" isn't deserving of an eternity of torture, but because, they are guessing, that they haven't reached an age where they can make reasonable decisions not to commit these awful sins that come from this "sin nature."

I ask them regularly what they mean by "sin nature..." and never get much of an answer.

Are they saying that these newborn babies are imperfect humans who, given a chance to grow up, will make mistakes and "sin," and do wrong in numerous ways? Of course, that comes with being imperfect humans.

But what specifically are these infants doing - or going to do - that is SO heinous, SO evil that it deserves to be punished with an eternity of torture?

Or what about these conservatives, themselves. What have they done, specifically, that is so evil that the only reasonable punishment is an eternity of torture? Not merely rebukes or temporal punishments for the typical "crimes" of humanity - the being jealous, being greedy, telling a lie, telling 1,000 lies, lusting after a man or a woman... - that the ONLY possible punishment for it is an eternity of torture, something akin to being burned alive forever??!!

I ask and get no answers.

Or the answers, when I get them, are vague and unsupported and frankly, a bit irrational. "You're committing 'cosmic treason' against God almighty!"

"Cosmic treason??" What's that?

Ultra-conservative RC Sproul says in an essay on "cosmic treason..."

“The sinfulness of sin” sounds like a vacuous redundancy that adds no information to the subject under discussion."

And he's not wrong. It DOES sound like a vacuous redundancy. He goes on with this nonsense.

What I meant by that statement was that even the slightest sin that a creature commits against his Creator does violence to the Creator’s holiness, His glory, and His righteousness. Every sin, no matter how seemingly insignificant, is an act of rebellion against the sovereign God who reigns and rules over us and as such is an act of treason against the cosmic King.

Fine. But says who? Where is the support for this nonsense?

Does he know EVEN ONE PERSON - much less proof that it's common amongst humanity - that is deliberately "rebelling against the sovereign God..."? I mean, I'm a fallen, imperfect human just as we all are, and I know a good number of fallen imperfect humans... but I've never met one person who has said anything to suggest that they are deliberately wanting to do evil, or deliberately wanting to rebel against a sovereign God. Where is the evidence for this?

I just don't see it and they never provide it.

I then have often asked, "What about you? Your children and family? What specifically have they done where they said, in effect, 'I want to spit in the eye of God and commit atrocious crimes that cause harm to people and the world and to God...'?"

Again, I get no answers, no response.

Maybe it's the case that I just know a better class of people - fallen, though we all may be. I just don't know anyone like this. I can't imagine what it is that I or the people that I've known throughout the years that is SO evil, SO atrocious that the only apt punishment is an eternity of torture, of being burned alive, forever.

And when I repeatedly get no answers from the conservatives that I grew up with, the conservatives I know now... I have to think that they simply have no answers.

They believe that newborn babies are guilty of having a "sin nature," and that "sin nature" ought to reasonably be punished with an eternity of torture... even though they have no proof of this. They believe that people - themselves included - regularly, naturally engage in cosmic treason, deliberate acts of spitting in the face of God and saying, "I WANT TO REBEL AND DO EVIL..." even though they can't even point to one thing that they've done that supports this crazy-sounding claim.

What do we do with that?

The God of the Oppressed in the Bible

God made it clear that God sided with the poor and oppressed and marginalized throughout the Bible, if the authors of the Bible can be trusted. A small sampling...

Deuteronomy:

But the Egyptians mistreated us and made us suffer, subjecting us to harsh labor.
Then we cried out to the Lord, the God of our ancestors, and
the Lord heard our voice and saw our misery, toil and oppression.

Judges:

I rescued you from the hand of the Egyptians. And I delivered you
from the hand of all your oppressors;
I drove them out before you and gave you their land.

2 Samuel:

And I will provide a place for my people Israel and will plant them so that
they can have a home of their own and no longer be disturbed.
Wicked people will not oppress them anymore...

1 Chronicles:

[God speaking] they [Israel] wandered from nation to nation,
from one kingdom to another.
God allowed no one to oppress them;
for their sake he rebuked kings:
“Do not touch my anointed ones;
do my prophets no harm.”

Nehemiah:

when they were oppressed they cried out to you.
From heaven you heard them, and
in your great compassion you gave them deliverers,
who rescued them from the hand of their enemies.

Job:

For he has oppressed the poor and left them destitute;
he has seized houses he did not build.
“Surely he will have no respite from his craving;
he cannot save himself by his treasure.

Psalms:

The Lord is a refuge for the oppressed, a stronghold in times of trouble.

Psalms:

You, Lord, hear the desire of the afflicted;
you encourage them, and you listen to their cry,
defending the fatherless and the oppressed,
so that mere earthly mortals
will never again strike terror.

More Psalms:

May God defend the afflicted among the people and save the children of the needy;
may God crush the oppressor.

More Psalms, this time apparently speaking directly to the GOP leaders in KY, TN, TX, etc...

From their callous hearts comes iniquity;
their evil imaginations have no limits.

They scoff, and speak with malice;
with arrogance they threaten oppression.

Their mouths lay claim to heaven,
and their tongues take possession of the earth.

I could go on and on in Psalms and really, every book, but continuing...

Proverbs:

Whoever oppresses the poor shows contempt for their Maker,
but whoever is kind to the needy honors God.

Ecclesiastes:

I saw the tears of the oppressed—
and they have no comforter;
power was on the side of their oppressors—
and they have no comforter.

Isaiah:

Therefore this is what the Holy One of Israel says:
“Because you have rejected this message,
relied on oppression
and depended on deceit,
this sin will become for you
like a high wall, cracked and bulging,
that collapses suddenly, in an instant.

Isaiah:

“Is not this the kind of fasting I have chosen:
to loose the chains of injustice and untie the cords of the yoke,
to set the oppressed free and break every yoke?"


Isaiah, later quoted by Jesus as to what his ministry was about:

The Spirit of the Sovereign LORD is on me,
because the LORD has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor.
He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted,
to proclaim freedom for the captives and release from darkness for the prisoners,
to proclaim the year of the LORD’s favor and the day of vengeance of our God,
to comfort all who mourn...

Jeremiah:

If you really change your ways and your actions and deal with each other justly,
if you do not oppress the foreigner,
the fatherless or the widow and
do not shed innocent blood in this place,
and if you do not follow other gods to your own harm,
then I will let you live in this place...

Ezekiel, explaining what the "sin of Sodom" actually was:

Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom:
She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned;
they did not help the poor and needy.

Amos:

They trample on the heads of the poor as on the dust of the ground and
deny justice to the oppressed.

Zephaniah:

Woe to the city of oppressors,
    rebellious and defiled!
She does not trust in the Lord,
    she does not draw near to her God.
Her officials within her
    are roaring lions;
her rulers are evening wolves,
    who leave nothing for the morning.
Her prophets are unprincipled;
    they are treacherous people.
Her priests profane the sanctuary
    and do violence to the law.

Malachi:

So I will come to put you on trial.
I will be quick to testify against sorcerers, adulterers and perjurers,
against those who defraud laborers of their wages,
who oppress the widows and the fatherless, and
deprive the foreigners among you of justice,
but do not fear me.

And that's just a tiny sampling from the Old Testament. Let those who have ears, hear.

I Hate Your Religious Festivals, More

Not that it's likely to matter to people like the conservatives who need to hear this - the ones who routinely think they know what's best for everyone else, better than the experts, better than the people involved and their families and allies, but...

I attended a large rally last night with hundreds of LGBTQ, Drag performers, preachers, church folk, city leaders and allies.

What we heard is that the LGBTQ community is telling anyone who's listening that they're living in terror about these anti-trans, anti-drag laws being pushed by conservatives.

They told us that these laws WILL kill LGBTQ people, including children.

They told us that the pretenses of the anti-drag laws are fallacious, built upon lies not supported by reality.

In my own Kentucky, for instance, the conservative religious bigots are saying they have to protect children from sexually explicit performances like Drag Queen Story Hours (DQSH)... but that simply doesn't happen at DQSHs. It's a lie meant to attack and demonize, which attacks actually DO cause harm.

One Drag Queen pointed out the false claims that they're "sexualizing" and "grooming " children, but as she testified - and the crowd roared in approval - she was NEVER groomed by any LGBTQ people, NEVER harmed by any LGBTQ people.

She was, however, baptized as an infant, against her will. She was sent to weekly Bible classes and told what she should believe... she was told that if she continued this transgender path she was on, she'd be burnt alive for an eternity... this is what she was told by conservative zealots.

Let's talk about who's actually grooming!

She said she was never molested, never harmed, never groomed by LGBTQ people, no. Instead, the LGBTQ community were the ones who were there to embrace and support her in the face of the torment she received from conservative bigots. To pick her up when she'd been beaten down by conservatives.

Many of the speakers talked about how they were so oppressed, demonized and reviled by conservatives, including those who said they love them - their family and church family - that they felt it would be better to just kill themselves.

As children, this is what conservative mistreatment had led them to. According to them.

Do you all really think you know their situation better than them?

Fortunately, at least in large parts of the world and most of the US, the tide has turned against these fundamentalist bigoted ways of thinking. The majority of the US recognizes that of course, LGBTQ folks are their own best experts and that the actual experts agree with them, NOT with the minority view of anti-reason, anti-data bigots who are trying to force these laws on the majority of the states and nation. The old white religious conservatives may win temporary battles, but we will make progress and sooner or later, these hateful religious views will simply die off and be replaced with more progressive ideas.

It's really quite simple: Let's stand against those laws that cause harm and for those laws which promote wholesome, healthy lives. Let's stand against religious bigots - even if they don't realize they're bigots, and stand with the marginalized and oppressed.

And it should go without saying that any hateful comments made here will be deleted. Any comments that suggest that human rights should be denied to some people will be deleted.

Choose to side with freedom, justice and decency. Choose to side for children and families and healthy lives.

Them Lyin' Media and Corrupt Politicians!

Far too many conservative extremists have been attacking the "mainstream media" for years, complaining that they're dishonest and shills for liberal causes and knowingly report false claims. This, of course, undermines trust in the reported word and does damage to a free republic in the process. Treating the media as a literal "enemy of the people" of the US is precisely part of the process for authoritarians throughout history. "Don't trust what they're reporting... Trust ME and ONLY ME..." It's a dangerous, twisted road to go down but it's exactly what Trump and his ilk have been doing for years (well before Trump, he's just upped the volume and viciousness). Indeed, Fox News played this same gambit for years. "WE are the fair and balanced ones... Don't listen to any other media!"

Of course, wise citizens have always recognized this con for what it is. But then, there are the gullible citizens. The ones susceptible to cons and grifts.

So, now that Fox News and Trump's own lawyers and allies are making it clear that they were lying about the "stolen election" claims they pushed relentlessly, and that they KNEW they were lying and that they lied ONLY for the reason of hanging on to profits and power (some of the signs of con artists throughout the centuries)... NOW, will that cause those who whine about unsupported and unsubstantiated claims of reputable media outlets to finally open their eyes and recognized they've been played for useful idiots all along? NOW, will they admit they've been suckered? NOW, will they turn their attacks on Fox News and Trump and his allies for these admitted cons?

I have yet to see ANY sign that MAGA country is willing to admit what was always clear and what is indisputably clear now. I have yet to see them condemn Fox News for knowing Trump was an incompetent ass and irresponsible liar and STILL promoting him. Indeed, Fox News acolytes of Trump have made it clear that they literally loathed the corrupt orange idiot. But not one word from any of the Fox Country conservatives out there.

What will it take?

Environmental, Simple-Living and Agrarian Wisdom from Liberals

At least two conservative types who have regularly commented here expressed an ignorance of knowledge that liberals are concerned about simple-living, healthy-living, wholesome life concern for rural and agrarian topics. They appear to be wholly unaware of this vast Agrarianism field in progressive writings and expertise.

Indeed, the term, Agrarian, itself, is a progressive philosophy regularly espoused by liberals. From Wikipedia:

Agrarianism is a political and social philosophy that has promoted subsistence agriculture, smallholdings and egalitarianism, with agrarian political parties normally supporting the rights and sustainability of small farmers and poor peasants against the wealthy in society. In highly developed and industrial nations or regions, it can denote use of financial and social incentives for self-sustainability, more community involvement in food production (such as allotment gardens) and smart growth that avoids urban sprawl, and also what many of its advocates contend are risks of human overpopulation; when overpopulation occurs, the available resources become too limited for the entire population to survive comfortably or at all in the long term.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agrarianism

A partial list of philosophers and writers coming from a more liberal or progressive tradition who have written about agrarianism, simple-living, healthy rural communities, etc include these below among many others (with the caveat that not all would fit neatly in liberal/progressive traditions but nearly all would be considered wildly liberal by many modern conservatives):

Wendell Berry
Aldo Leopold
John Muir
Henry David Thoreau
Rachel Carson
Robin Wall Kimmerer
Robert Penn Warren
Harlan and Anna Hubbard
Helen and Scott Nearing
Ralph Waldo Emerson
Edward Abbey
Arundhati Roy
Gail Myers and Owusu Bandele
Thomas Jefferson (??)
Miguel de la Torre
Ellen Davis
Thomas Paine
Patty Krawec
Edwin Way Teale
Martin Luther King
Jane Goodall
Marjory Stoneman Douglas

And I could go on and on. Look up rural environmentalists, agrarianism, liberal environmental writers, indigenous environment, black agrarianism, etc. Some quotes:

“The long fight to save wild beauty represents democracy at its best. It requires citizens to practice the hardest of virtues--self-restraint. Why cannot I take as many trout as I want from a stream? Why cannot I bring home from the woods a rare wildflower? Because if I do, everybody in this democracy should be able to do the same. My act will be multiplied endlessly. To provide protection for wildlife and wild beauty, everyone has to deny himself proportionately. Special privilege and conservation are ever at odds.”

“It is those who have compassion for all life who will best safeguard the life of man. Those who become aroused only when man is endangered become aroused too late. We cannot make the world uninhabitable for other forms of life and have it habitable for ourselves. It is the conservationist who is concerned with the welfare of all the land and life of the country, who, in the end, will do most to maintain the world as a fit place for human existence.”

~Edwin Way Teale

 

“Our strategy should be not only to confront empire, but to lay siege to it. To deprive it of oxygen. To shame it. To mock it. With our art, our music, our literature, our stubbornness, our joy, our brilliance, our sheer relentlessness – and our ability to tell our own stories. Stories that are different from the ones we’re being brainwashed to believe.

The corporate revolution will collapse if we refuse to buy what they are selling – their ideas, their version of history, their wars, their weapons, their notion of inevitability.

Remember this: We be many and they be few. They need us more than we need them.

Another world is not only possible, she is on her way. On a quiet day, I can hear her breathing.”

~Arundhati Roy

“Let me outline briefly as I can what seem to me the characteristics of these opposite kinds of mind. I conceive a strip-miner to be a model exploiter, and as a model nurturer I take the old-fashioned idea or ideal of a farmer. The exploiter is a specialist, an expert; the nurturer is not. The standard of the exploiter is efficiency; the standard of the nurturer is care. The exploiter's goal is money, profit; the nurturer's goal is health -- his land's health, his own, his family's, his community's, his country's..."

“If change is to come, it will have to come from the margins.”

~Wendell Berry

“Campaigners for God, Country and the American Way of Life did not stop when they had crushed radical trade unions and jailed socialist, syndicalist and communist spokespeople. They also bought out and took over the communication apparatus...

The same men who operated mines, factories and department stores became owners, directors and trustees of the entire communication apparatus. Communication, like merchandising and farming became parts of the big business octopus that was reaching its tentacles into every profit-yielding corner of American life."

~Scott Nearing

For a small sampling.

=====

This was a quickly thrown-together effort. There is, of course, SO much to cover on the topic. I'm shamefully not well-read on LatinX authors on agrarian concerns, but I know enough to know there is much written on the topic. As well as from women and indigenous peoples. But it's a start.

"I Hate Your Religious Festivals"

Shame on the GOP.

Shame on the meddlers and busybodies.

Shame on the hypocrites.

Shame on the oppressors.

Shame on those who, on the one hand, are worried that professionals teaching children about the realities of slavery, racism, homosexuality and transgender issues... those who falsely accuse these experts and professionals of the worst motives and behaviors

BUT, who at the same time

insist that THEY are the ones who need to dictate by weight of law
what women should do with their pregnancies
what parents of transgender kids can do to support their children
AND while listening to expert opinion
to save their children's lives.

Meddling oppressors.

Liars.

Those whose policies are dangerous and deadly.

The ones who are ACTUALLY trying to "groom" children to be petty, graceless oppressors like them.

Shame on them and the hell they are creating for themselves.

AND, shame on those conservatives who may not go so far as the legislators in places like Kentucky and Tennessee in oppressing LGBTQ people and dictating medical decisions upon women
BUT who do not speak up and denounce their fellow conservatives.

All it takes for evil to win is for normal people to remain silent.

Shame on modern conservatism and their oppressive, dictatorial tendencies.

You will be remembered as a stain on history and your children and grandchildren will grow to recognize you as villains and oppressors.
 
You are dying out and your day of dictatorial rule can't last much longer.

Repent while you can. Stop harming innocent people as you try to force your vile and graceless, loveless "religion" on others.

There are those who turn justice into bitterness
    and cast righteousness to the ground.

The One who made the Pleiades and Orion,
    who turns midnight into dawn
    and darkens day into night,
who calls for the waters of the sea
    and pours them out over the face of the land—
    the Lord is his name.
With a blinding flash God destroys the stronghold
    and brings the fortified city to ruin.

There are those who hate the one who upholds justice in court
    and detest the one who tells the truth.

You levy a straw tax on the poor
    and impose a tax on their grain.
Therefore, though you have built stone mansions,
    you will not live in them;
though you have planted lush vineyards,
    you will not drink their wine.
For I know how many are your offenses
    and how great your sins.

There are those who oppress the innocent and take bribes
    and deprive the poor of justice in the courts...

“I hate, I despise your religious festivals;
    your assemblies are a stench to me.
Even though you bring me burnt offerings and grain offerings,
    I will not accept them.
Though you bring choice fellowship offerings,
    I will have no regard for them.
Away with the noise of your songs!
    I will not listen to the music of your harps.
But let justice roll on like a river,
    righteousness like a never-failing stream!"

~The Prophet, Amos