"Think of the least “imperfect” person you know. Do they get anywhere close to doing these things!? We don’t even get past the first one; for what would it look like to dedicate every part of oneself to God?"
I replied...
I'll have to warn you: the least perfect people I know are pretty amazing people.
I'll have to warn you: the least perfect people I know are pretty amazing people.
Do they love God and fellow humans with "all their hearts? I don't know how one would objectively measure that. Is there some fool-proof method? I don't think so.
But they do clearly love God. As evidenced by their love of God's creation and of our fellow humans.
What
would it look like to dedicate every part of one's self to God? I'd say
living a life poured out in love to our fellow humans. As Jesus noted,
when you've aided/allied with the least of these, you've done it to me.
So
the good teachers, social workers, justice workers, those who work
with, for, alongside the oppressed, the disabled and marginalized are
literally pouring out their lives in service to God, are they not (by
Jesus' measure)? As with Jesus, John noted in 1 John 4 (and as simple reason supports...)
Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them. This is how love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment: In this world we are like Jesus...
Wow. Continuing, John said...
Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God.
WHOEVER loves, lives in God. EVERYONE who loves has been born of God. What you do for the least of these, you do for me. In this world, we are like Jesus.
Wow!
These words are not nothing. For those of us who value the teachings found in the Bible, THIS is the Word of God. Jesus continued by saying that the essence of what God wants is to love God and love humanity. When asked what was the greatest rule, Jesus responded...
"Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.
All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
I was raised believing in this human tradition of the "utter depravity of humanity," which has been defined as,
"The doctrine of total depravity asserts that people are, as a result of the fall, not inclined or even able to love God wholly with heart, mind, and strength, but rather are inclined by nature to serve their own will and desires and reject his rule."
But Jesus and John and basic reasoning say that WHOEVER loves people, acts with kindness, compassion, forgiveness and justice... WHOEVER loves, lives in God. There is no mention of humanity as a whole being "not inclined or even ABLE to love..." Not because of liberal teaching, but from taking the Bible seriously and just using plain common sense, I see so many people out there pouring out their lives in love.
Do they do so perfectly? No, of course, not. But then, we are not a perfect people. To expect imperfect people to be somehow perfect is ridiculous. HOW would that happen? It can't, by definition.
But the more I see people, in general, the more I find the good and God in humanity.
Now, does that mean that confused humans don't lash out in evil violence? That Hamas doesn't decide that attacking innocent people and innocent children is an answer and so, engage in HORRIBLE violence and evil? That white conservatives who feel threatened about losing their power in a nation where they are no longer the dominant movement might sometimes lash out in violence, attacking churches, synagogues, temples, schools and other places? No, clearly, humanity as a whole fairly regularly engages in awful, atrocious behavior.
But think about it: Isn't it the case that these cases where such evil and unprovoked violence happens all the more awful because of the scarcity of such overt corruption and misdeeds? Yes, Israel might bomb and bomb and bomb Gaza, killing innocent people, children, aid workers, and destroying hospitals and churches and mosques in the process... but is that the norm? Yes, a crazed liberal might strike out in violence against an innocent person... but aren't these the exceptions?
I see my friends and colleagues out there every day, teaching children, healing the sick, standing for justice, working with the disabled, working with immigrants, working with the homeless, working to protect the environment, enjoying God's good creation, going for hikes in the woods, birdwatching, taking their grandkids birdwatching, taking the neighbor's kids out to play a game... there are so many people out there being decent, kind people. "Created in the image of God," "just a little lower than God, "Created to do good works," and I see it every day.
I have a neighbor (used to be my neighbor) who is now borderline homeless. He introduced himself to me 20 years ago as "I'm Fred, I am bi-polar and I'm your neighbor..." and that dear man struggles every day. And he's so kind and helpful and if I'm unloading a car and carrying stuff, he'll offer to help. He's a good man who struggles each and every day, but still he is a kind and helpful man. Even in his struggles, I see him regularly helping out with those even more marginalized than himself. My neighbor, Fred.
So, when someone asks me to think of the "least imperfect person I know..." as if that's going to be some kind of Aha! moment of realization of the evil of humanity... that just doesn't work. The traditional conservatives have taught me to take the Bible and reality seriously enough that I can no longer buy into this "utter depravity" human theory. I see too many decent, imperfect, wonderful fellow humans.
Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them. This is how love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment: In this world we are like Jesus...
Wow. Continuing, John said...
Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God.
WHOEVER loves, lives in God. EVERYONE who loves has been born of God. What you do for the least of these, you do for me. In this world, we are like Jesus.
Wow!
These words are not nothing. For those of us who value the teachings found in the Bible, THIS is the Word of God. Jesus continued by saying that the essence of what God wants is to love God and love humanity. When asked what was the greatest rule, Jesus responded...
"Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.
All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
I was raised believing in this human tradition of the "utter depravity of humanity," which has been defined as,
"The doctrine of total depravity asserts that people are, as a result of the fall, not inclined or even able to love God wholly with heart, mind, and strength, but rather are inclined by nature to serve their own will and desires and reject his rule."
But Jesus and John and basic reasoning say that WHOEVER loves people, acts with kindness, compassion, forgiveness and justice... WHOEVER loves, lives in God. There is no mention of humanity as a whole being "not inclined or even ABLE to love..." Not because of liberal teaching, but from taking the Bible seriously and just using plain common sense, I see so many people out there pouring out their lives in love.
Do they do so perfectly? No, of course, not. But then, we are not a perfect people. To expect imperfect people to be somehow perfect is ridiculous. HOW would that happen? It can't, by definition.
But the more I see people, in general, the more I find the good and God in humanity.
Now, does that mean that confused humans don't lash out in evil violence? That Hamas doesn't decide that attacking innocent people and innocent children is an answer and so, engage in HORRIBLE violence and evil? That white conservatives who feel threatened about losing their power in a nation where they are no longer the dominant movement might sometimes lash out in violence, attacking churches, synagogues, temples, schools and other places? No, clearly, humanity as a whole fairly regularly engages in awful, atrocious behavior.
But think about it: Isn't it the case that these cases where such evil and unprovoked violence happens all the more awful because of the scarcity of such overt corruption and misdeeds? Yes, Israel might bomb and bomb and bomb Gaza, killing innocent people, children, aid workers, and destroying hospitals and churches and mosques in the process... but is that the norm? Yes, a crazed liberal might strike out in violence against an innocent person... but aren't these the exceptions?
I see my friends and colleagues out there every day, teaching children, healing the sick, standing for justice, working with the disabled, working with immigrants, working with the homeless, working to protect the environment, enjoying God's good creation, going for hikes in the woods, birdwatching, taking their grandkids birdwatching, taking the neighbor's kids out to play a game... there are so many people out there being decent, kind people. "Created in the image of God," "just a little lower than God, "Created to do good works," and I see it every day.
I have a neighbor (used to be my neighbor) who is now borderline homeless. He introduced himself to me 20 years ago as "I'm Fred, I am bi-polar and I'm your neighbor..." and that dear man struggles every day. And he's so kind and helpful and if I'm unloading a car and carrying stuff, he'll offer to help. He's a good man who struggles each and every day, but still he is a kind and helpful man. Even in his struggles, I see him regularly helping out with those even more marginalized than himself. My neighbor, Fred.
So, when someone asks me to think of the "least imperfect person I know..." as if that's going to be some kind of Aha! moment of realization of the evil of humanity... that just doesn't work. The traditional conservatives have taught me to take the Bible and reality seriously enough that I can no longer buy into this "utter depravity" human theory. I see too many decent, imperfect, wonderful fellow humans.
28 comments:
Just skimmed through on my way to an older post, I noticed this:
"But Jesus and John and basic reasoning say that WHOEVER loves people, acts with kindness, compassion, forgiveness and justice... WHOEVER loves, lives in God."
Loving thy neighbor comes secondary to loving...and obeying...God. Thus, one can be loving, kind, compassionate, forgiving and just and fall far, far short if they do not first love and abide God. Indeed, one must first accept God exists or all else is meaningless.
Marshal...
Loving thy neighbor comes secondary to loving...and obeying...God.
John, etc...
WHOEVER lives in love lives in God, and God in them.
EVERYONE WHO LOVES has been born of God and knows God.
No mention of "obeying God" being primary, to be clear. Just those that Love others, DO love God. If you want to assume that those who love others ARE obeying God, I'm cool with that. But it's not proposed in such a manner as "obeying God" is a rule for salvation nor does it define what "obeying God" is, other than loving fellow humans.
Do you think ALL those who act in ways modeled and defined by Jesus as "loving others" (ie, feeding the poor, siding with the marginalized, giving actual good news to the poor and oppressed, showing compassion to one's neighbor, saving women from being stoned to death by religious legalists, etc) are saved and "of God..."?
You can't worship the child in the manger but let the child at the border drown and still be recognized as a christian.
Marshal posted a comment with multiple unsupported and irrational allegations. It was deleted because I've told Marshal he needs to support any conspiracy theories/irrational ideas he wants to try to put forth.
Among the allegations that Marshal made was this...
the unregulated invasion of our southern border by people who refuse to abide or laws regarding entry, enabled by criminals of Mexican cartels and their coyotes who do more than simply allow children to drown in order to avoid official ports of entry.
1. It is irrational and stupidly false to say that our southern border is being "invaded."
2. According to the data, far and away, MOST people coming across our borders are seeking refuge from unsafe home states or home states where there is suffering of the people and their children. People seeking refuge are literally NOT invaders. Period. Full stop.
Marshal, if you want to say ONE WORD MORE on this post, you have to begin by acknowledging that reality: That people seeking refuge/safety/escape from deprivation are not rationally labeled "invaders" and that you were WRONG to call them that.
YOU MUST acknowledge that simple basic decency or just move on.
3. IF your family was being threatened with rape, murder or assault and the only way you knew to escape the violence was to break a misdemeanor rule to get to safety, you would, wouldn't you? If not, shame on you.
4. Moral, just people have long agreed that breaking unjust, harmful laws IS a moral action. Do you recognize that reality?
5. You have no data which says that most of the people seeking safety in our nation are "enabled by criminals of Mexican cartels," is that correct? (NOTE: UNLESS you provide support for the claim, it will be deleted.)
No! Don’t tell me he diverted and deflected away from his thrill to brutality at the border by claiming we ourselves were allowing massive immigration to ruin the economy and perceptively increase unemployment in or own country!!!!!
Again?!
What a liar. How low is unemployment again?
Btw, the DeSantis-(Italian immigrant)-kidnapped Martha’s Vineyard folks are doing great in MV itself and in Boston. Working. Saving for the costs of filing for refugee-from-civil-war and femicide and terrorism status just like hundreds of thousands of others: protecting their boys from being dragooned into gangs and their daughters from being gang raped.
But Marshal thrills to that kind of evil perpetrated on people of color.
I'm sorry if I wasn't clear, Marshal:
If you want to say ONE WORD MORE on this post, you
HAVE to begin by acknowledging that reality:
That people seeking refuge/safety/escape from deprivation
are not rationally labeled "invaders" and that
you were WRONG to call them that.
Marshal chose to ignore my polite request and instead, doubled down. The definitions that he used...
1. an incursion by a large number of people or things into a place or sphere of activity.
2. an unwelcome intrusion into another's domain.
...are NOT what people like Trump, Maga types and Marshal mean by the term, "invaders." There is a note of evil, wrong-doing, intimidation, harm in how invaders is typically used and how Marshal is still using it.
The first two definitions in MW are:
1: to enter for conquest or plunder
2: to encroach upon : infringe
Harm and ill-will are in the definition as popularly used and as used by anti-immigrant types like Trump, the KKK and Marshal.
From dictionary.com:
1. (of an armed force or its commander) enter (a country or region) so as to subjugate or occupy it.
"it was all part of a grander French plan to invade Ireland"
Similar: occupy conquer capture seize take (over) overrun storm attack assail assault
plunder maraud
2. enter (a place, situation, or sphere of activity) in large numbers, especially with intrusive effect.
"demonstrators invaded the Presidential Palace"
Similar: attack take over
(of a parasite or disease) spread into (an organism or bodily part).
"sometimes the worms invade the central nervous system"
Of course, this latter is precisely the type of harm-causing and malevolent intent that Trump and the KKK types use when talking about the "invaders."
NONE of that is the reality with the majority of immigrants seeking refuge.
YOU have no data to prove any ill-intent or anything beyond just what is known: That they are seeking refuge and a chance to live safely and securely.
You and Trump and the KKK types are wrong to use this term when speaking of our refugees and immigrants who are part of what makes our nation great.
Now, again: UNTIL you admit you were wrong to use that term, and how that term is simply wrong to apply to peaceful immigrants seeking to improve their lot, you can not comment here.
It's been noted that you disagree with reality and prefer to frame our peaceful immigrants in the same xenophobic terms that Trump and the KKK use. But you're not going to spread that false slander here. And certainly without even trying to support it (which, of course, you can't).
I had noted...
" 5. You have no data which says that most of the people seeking safety in our nation are "enabled by criminals of Mexican cartels," is that correct? (NOTE: UNLESS you provide support for the claim, it will be deleted.)"
And Marshal replied with a GOP source saying that Border Patrol types are saying that by and large "no one" is crossing without paying into drug cartels.
Consider the source, but to be fair, I'm noting that he at least tried to support his empty claims.
Now, noting that the modern GOP is full-on run by the zany lunatics on the far right, just consider the source.
Our idiot thug readers won’t acknowledge this:
After Rise in Murders During the Pandemic, a Sharp Decline in 2023
"The predominant reasons immigrants say they came to the U.S. are for better work and educational opportunities, a better future for their children, and more rights and freedoms. Smaller but still sizeable shares cite other factors such as joining family members or escaping unsafe or violent conditions.
Overall, a majority of immigrants say their financial situation (78%), educational opportunities (79%), employment situation (75%), and safety (65%) are better as a result of moving to the U.S. "
https://www.kff.org/report-section/understanding-the-u-s-immigrant-experience-the-2023-kff-la-times-survey-of-immigrants-findings/
Dan
It is noted that Marshal thinks in his head that "immigrants" are "invaders." It doesn't matter to him that this is factually wrong. It doesn't matter that it's an abusive and xenophobic false claim. It doesn't matter to him that this is the same reasoning embraced by Trump and the KKK and other white nationalists. THAT is all factual, but none of it matters to Marshal.
There's something wrong with Marshal's reasoning/thinking on this topic and he's just unable to see how very cruel and false and slanderous his claims are and he won't retract the false claim that he can't support (because, of course, it's false). So Marshal can't comment here.
But take comfort Marshal: I wouldn't let KKK types post those lies here, either.
Marshal also thinks he’s smarter than geologists and physicists and chemists. Marshal is sure the Earth isn’t even a third as old as they say. So good cheer, Dan. You and Einstein are one side and Marshal is on the other. The line in front of you is Marshal’s psychotic break.
Marshal (in now deleted comments, deleted because they were vulgar and full of unsupported claims that were, of course, false or, at best, irrational opinions) has asked for proof that KKK-types (white nationalists, white supremacists, Proud Boys, etc, etc) support Trump.
This is a known thing for anyone who's not in denial. It would be hard to say how LARGE a percentage of Trump supporters are overt racists (xenophobes, misogynists), but there can be no doubt it's there.
Two years ago, some undertook to try to measure that. Here are their findings:
The connection between racism and the right-wing movement is apparent in a new poll from the Public Religion Research Institute. The survey asked respondents about 11 statements designed to probe views on racism. For example: “White Americans today are not responsible for discrimination against Black people in the past.” The pollsters then used their answers to quantify a “structural racism index,” which provides a general score from zero to 1 measuring a person’s attitudes on “white supremacy and racial inequality, the impact of discrimination on African American economic mobility, the treatment of African Americans in the criminal justice system, general perceptions of race, and whether racism is still significant problem today.” Higher scores indicate a more receptive attitude to racist beliefs.
The results shouldn’t surprise anyone paying attention to the MAGA crowd’s rhetoric and veneration of the Confederacy. “Among all Americans, the median value on the structural racism index is 0.45, near the center of the scale,” the poll found. “The median score on the structural racism index for Republicans is 0.67, compared with 0.45 for independents and 0.27 for Democrats.” Put differently, Republicans are much more likely to buy into the notion that Whites are victims.
The poll also found that the religious group that makes up the core of today’s GOP and MAGA movement has the highest structural racism measure among the demographics it surveyed: “White evangelical Protestants have the highest median score, at 0.64, while Latter-day Saints, white Catholics, and white mainline Protestants each have a median of 0.55. By contrast, religiously unaffiliated white Americans score 0.33.” This is true even though Whites report far less discrimination toward them than racial minorities do.
The survey also captured just how popular the “Lost Cause” to rewrite the history of the Civil War and downplay or ignore the evil of slavery is on the right: “Republicans overwhelmingly back efforts to preserve the legacy of the Confederacy (85%), compared with less than half of independents (46%) and only one in four Democrats (26%). The contrast between white Republicans and white Democrats is stark. Nearly nine in 10 white Republicans (87%), compared with 23% of white Democrats, support efforts to preserve the legacy of the Confederacy.”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2022/09/28/racism-survey-prri-maga-republicans/
And on it goes...
More:
Among Americans with a favorable view of Trump, 41% of people are open to political violence from "true American patriots"
According to PRRI, white Christians are "notably more likely" to consider immigrants "an invading force..."
https://www.msnbc.com/opinion/msnbc-opinion/trump-evangelical-supporters-political-violence-poll-rcna122023
You and yours have been sold a stupidly false claim and the data shows it. The good news, for you, is that you're not alone in your being duped. But that's not really a good thing.
Continuing...
Two and a half years after the January 6 attack on the Capitol, an estimated 12 million American adults, or 4.4% of the adult population, believe violence is justified to restore Donald Trump to the White House...
“What you’re seeing is really disturbing levels of distrust in American democracy, support for dangerous conspiracy theories, and support for political violence itself,” Pape said.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jun/09/january-6-trump-political-violence-survey
And don't be so foolish to guess that this more violent, more conspiracy-theory-driven group is also not significantly overlapping with the white supremacists and KKK-types.
More...
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/white-nationalists-support-donald-trump/story?id=37524610
While we don't know the exact numbers of white supremacists (the ones who, themselves, say that they've been empowered by Trump) are in turn, empowering him, Trump is in power precisely because of white supremacists. Given the very close voting numbers, EVEN IF it's "only" 4-6% of Trump acolytes who are overtly connected to white supremacy, that alone is enough to have pushed him over the electoral edge in 2016.
Don't be deceived.
More...
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/number-of-hate-groups-declined-in-2021-but-proud-boys-chapters-surging-says-splc
https://www.americanprogress.org/article/white-supremacy-returned-mainstream-politics/
...and this. Read this:
The recently released PRRI/Brookings Christian Nationalism Survey of over 6,000 Americans makes clear that Christian nationalism is a growing threat in this country, as 1 in 10 Americans are defined as adherents to Christian nationalism according to the study’s multi-dimensional measurement scale. With another 19% who are supportive of multiple aspects of Christian nationalism (defined as sympathizers), Christian nationalism values are becoming engrained in mainstream culture.
The new Christian nationalism survey makes clear that there is an underlying ideology of racism among the Christian nationalist movement that connects them to white nationalist groups who rely on old and new tropes to promote white supremacy. Americans who are supportive of Christian nationalism generally hold less favorable views of immigrants, racial and ethnic minorities, and are less likely to believe that racism remains a problem in American society. Among other findings, roughly 65% of white Christian nationalism sympathizers and adherents disagree that white supremacy is still a major problem in the U.S. today, twice as high as Americans overall in the survey. Similarly, 66% of white Christian nationalism sympathizers and 81% of adherents believe in replacement theory, the view that immigrants are “invading our country and replacing our cultural and ethnic background.”
https://www.brookings.edu/articles/white-nationalism-remains-major-concern-for-voters-of-color-and-appears-to-be-connected-ideologically-to-the-growing-christian-nationalism-movement/
Study after study, poll after poll reveals what should be obvious to all.
Don't be deceived. God can not be mocked. We will reap whatever we sow.
And reality won't be mocked, either.
No need to respond unless you first begin by apologizing for your false, xenophobic claims. You won't be posting white supremacist doctrine and conspiracy theories here.
Marshal complained, as usual, with ZERO support, that the non-partisan, highly regarded PRRI is a bad research outfit. I did some research and can find no legitimate complaints about their reporting and I find this Bias Check website that rates it very highly.
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/public-religion-research-institute-prri/
Of course, Marshal will once again complain, once again without support, that MBFC is not reliable.
We get it, Marshal, when the experts, the data they cite and those who check on their research all disagree with you and hurt your feelings, you think that they're not trustworthy. But you do so without support.
It's not adult reasoning, Marshal.
Odd how they just don't see it. OR even see it as a remote possibility. But then, I couldn't see past my conservative upbringing for years.
It’s willful. To see Christ as commanding love deprives them of their unconscious thrill to brutality and their conscious commitment to Protestant sectarian judgments, otherwise none as White Supremacy.
These things have been inculcated for a dozen generations and embedded as the core of our identity as White men.
Thank god and the Spirit that you and I were liberated from that spiritual prison.
You guys are funny...pretending you're actual Christians. It's hilarious!
I've seen a meme recently that said something to the effect of, "I have to think that the God of perfect love and grace is not going to be so angry that we had a misunderstanding about this point or that point of theology, but is WAY more concerned about what we do to, with and for the "least of these..."
That seems reasonable.
For Marshal and modern conservatism, if you make honest mistakes in understanding God on issues of salvation, marriage, siding with the marginalized, THEN you will BURN in hell for an ETERNITY for the "sin" of being sincerely mistaken. But at the same time, they find a need to make figurative the repeated theme of "Love others..." the Golden rule and all that. One has to ask how reasonable that is, IF one is affirming a God of grace, love and justice.
They consciously need to make love figurative as an ideological move to justify their unconscious need to dehumanize the Other, all others. It’s 500 years of dispossessing Others of land, labor, limbs, loved ones and life itself. A culture built on such brutalizing economics needs ideological justifications in order to hide our generationally learned brutalizing character from ourselves. But the Other, all Others, live with it, suffer it, and see it.
Perhaps. But they're not so blind or unintelligent to find it inconceivable that a loved one of theirs will one day be on the receiving end of being dehumanized and, out of love for their own, can understand that this dehumanizing, dispossessing way can't be right (and certainly not Biblical). If I can learn, they can.
As I've said many times before, it wasn't reading liberal treatises and screeds that pushed me to become more progressive: It was reading the Bible and taking it seriously, as the conservatives taught me (God bless 'em for that) and listening more closely to what CONSERVATIVES are arguing (and how) that made me pull away from them to a more welcoming and gracious and inclusive Way (what they call flaming liberal and I call reasonable and Christ-ian).
Not everyone needs so badly to hide from both their unconscious and their conscience. Note the two unrelated words. Not everyone has so fragilely held an identity that one cannot face and walk in the direction pointed out by conscience and fueled by truths becoming consciously known.
Isn’t your chosen denomination, Methodist? Which itself has split, like almost all others between human rights and a need to preserve a myth of identity.
However you developed with an open, listening conscience unthreatened by the unconscience - whether by any or all of parentage, character, experience - you were permeable to the Spirit.
St Paul talks about the fragility of weak Christians. The plan according to him was to be compassionate and understanding, but never to give them credence in their bigoted anxieties much less leadership.
Dan,
You speak of "honest mistakes" as if the issues in question haven't been exhaustively discussed and support provided to debunk the majority of your "mistakes". You simply cling to them despite no legitimate and logical reason for doing so and then suppose God will ignore your petulant obstinance against truth and facts. Like the Pharisees, you've added that which Scripture in no way promotes, tolerates, enables or endorses.
“The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to set the oppressed free.”
Luke 4:18
I think they object to us when we summarize "prisoners, blind, sick, oppressed..." as marginalized. "That's not literally in the Bible!" they complain, even while insisting upon their pet human traditions as being "the word of God," even though they are neither literally in the Bible, nor implied.
Dan
Church music isn’t in the Bible either.
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