Stan writes today to once again pit Paul against Jesus. And as always, I'm not picking on Stan and don't want to talk about Stan. I'm talking about the point he is raising and the questions he's ignoring... as has been my experience when talking with more conservative Christians. Stan says...
Despite the Pauline Dispensationalists who claim that Jesus taught a different gospel than Paul or the Social Justice Warriors that argue that Jesus taught a "good news for the poor" rather than "saved by faith" gospel, it appears that Jesus and Paul taught the same gospel: repent and believe and you will have eternal life.
A few points:
1. Folks like me do NOT believe in a "good news for the poor" rather than "saved by faith" gospel" - we believe in salvation by God's grace and we note that Jesus said he'd come to preach this good news specifically, literally to the poor and marginalized. That is, this salvation of grace begins with the poor and marginalized.
2. I'm noting that Stan found nothing in Jesus' words saying anything about the evangelical belief in a penal substitutionary atonement theory as taught by some human traditions.
3. And, as always, I wonder (and get no answers other than waving away the questions or saying we shouldn't take THESE words literally)... What do you all do with Jesus' continued emphasis on a good news for the poor and marginalized that came up so frequently and with such emphasis in Jesus' words? Ignore them?
WHY did Jesus say he'd come to preach good news to the poor and marginalized specifically?
What about that good news of "repentance and faith" (PLUS the blood sacrifice/atonement/angry god theory) is somehow good news for the poor?
4. Here's the thing: I can point to the ways in which a Gospel of Grace that more aligns with Jesus' teachings is good news specifically for the poor and marginalized. In the salvation by God's grace, where we have a loving God who loves the whole world and wants to see the whole world saved and who BEGINS that salvation of grace with/for the poor and marginalized who have traditionally been ignored and excluded, it IS good news for them in the following ways:
a. They are specifically INCLUDED. Not told they're filthy and unclean, unfit to be loved by God. They are lovingly invited, welcomed and greeted to the dinner table.
b. When we're following Christ and the early church's examples, that means, among other things, that they're literally invited to come and eat. That IS good news specifically for the poor and marginalized who have been ignored at best and hated and blamed at worst... they're welcome AND there's food. That's good news for the hungry and the lonely, abandoned, forgotten and oppressed.
c. They/we are welcome not JUST to a dinner, but to be part of a beloved community, one that begins with grace, love and welcome. And there's real power in that Church of God that is a beloved community, welcoming in grace and that's a real difference for the literally poor, sick, foreigner and oppressed. There's some level of protection in that community, there's healing in that community in a way that isn't there in the individualistic, god eat dog world and that is especially true and important for the poor and marginalized.
Do you see how it's reasonably literal good news for the poor, this doctrine of welcoming, loving grace? That, as opposed to, "IF God decides to 'gift' you with 'faith,' then you can be saved and if not, tough luck for you - poor and rich and in between!" That's the "good news" of the random one-in-a-million lottery winner, not for the poor and marginalized... I always wonder if they can see how that would not be literal good news for the poor and marginalized (and truly, it's not good news for most of humanity, at least amongst those evangelicals who insist that "the bible" "teaches" that God will send most of us to burn in hell forever!)?
It's a good and important question, though, "What Gospel did Jesus preach?" And I am certainly down with repenting and believing in Jesus/God... that would be part of a good news of grace, where we are welcomed and welcome to repent and forgive. But as you well know, it's not merely believing in God - even the demons do that, right? So simple "belief" is not what Jesus was speaking of, right? I'd say that it's affirming/accepting Jesus' WAY which is the way of grace which is, as Jesus notes, good news for the poor.
Can you see, at least, how some of us find that internally consistent with Jesus' literal words and rationally compelling?
For what it's worth, other times this issue has been raised and ignored...
https://throughthesewoods.blogspot.com/2015/08/different-gospels.html
https://throughthesewoods.blogspot.com/2018/09/defining-gospel.html
https://throughthesewoods.blogspot.com/2022/01/the-gospel-of-jesus-vs-evangelicalism.html
22 comments:
Dan, Stan bin Laden is almost absolutely corrcect that Paul taught that nothing was required of Gentiles except faith in Jesus Christ in order to be saved.
Galatians 2 "Yet not even Titus, who was with me, was compelled to be circumcised, even though he was a Greek. This matter arose because some false believers had infiltrated our ranks to spy on the freedom we have in Christ Jesus and to make us slaves. We did not give in to them for a moment, so that the truth of the gospel might be preserved for you."
Almost.
Stan erases Galatians 2:10: "All they asked was that we should continue to remember the poor, the very thing I had been eager to do all along."
And do we remember how ordained deacons became a thing in the first place?
Acts 6:1, "Now during those days, when the disciples were increasing in number, the Hellenists complained against the Hebrews because their widows were being neglected in the daily distribution of food."
Yup and yup. Seems pretty clear.
Dan
“… is that really how you want to play this? ‘you don't fully embrace and support me and my ideas, then you are excluding me.’l
So you, Stan, who condemns NYC like Osama bin Laden, argue with Jesus that she’s not worthy because of who she is:
There came a woman of Samaria to draw water. Jesus said to her, "Give me a drink." For his disciples had gone away into the city to buy food. The Samaritan woman said to him, "How is it that you, a Jew, ask a drink of me, a woman of Samaria?" For Jews have no dealings with Samaritans. Jesus answered her, "If you knew the gift of God, and who it is that is saying to you, ‘Give me a drink,' you would have asked him, and he would have given you living water.
Non-straight, non-white, non-male children of god receive from Jesus every day around the world. More than you do. You’ve stopped asking to learn.
Galatians 2:10 Identity is no barrier to faith. The only requirement is to take care of the poor.
But you cannot deal with it.
I love how Craig and the other extremist thugs think black people vote against their interests… as Republicans move to cancel the teaching of slavery, Jim Crow, and the AFRICAN-AMERICAN experience.
Like Florida, AP African American studies canceled by Arkansas officials just before school begins.
Proving my point.
[AP, since Marshal won’t know, is a a curriculum program designed by the College Board in the 1950s - when Marshal thinks the US was great - to enhance high achieving high school students with college level courses. College level courses, since Marshal won’t know, are about 5 grades past where Marshal stopped.]
Answer Galatians 2:11, Marshal, or admit that one Apostle tells another Apostle that he is condemned for his backtracking teaching in what Gentiles are obliged to do to be accepted by Jesus. So Apostles aren’t the very word of god.
Republicans...like Ron DeSantis...promote the teaching of truth, not leftist fictions.
This is, of course, a far right fiction. DeSantis is killing education with his hyper-partisan involvement in what schools teach in OPPOSITION to experts and educators and in deference to racists and their allies.
Get the politics out of our classrooms, indeed.
The rest of Marshal's comment was deleted because it engaged in appeals to racist denigrations of people of color.
Marshal, in a now-deleted comment...
You're indeed a cowardly little b*****. Borrow a pair of t******* and act like a m**.
THIS and vulgar, childish, misogynistic and racist-leaning comments are why your comments are deleted, Marshal. That's the rule. Don't be vulgar. Don't be misogynistic. Don't be hateful.
State your opinion in an polite, adult, respectful manner and not like a vulgar pre-teen with no moral boundaries.
I've explained all this before. Your hateful vulgar despicable words do not even begin to address any arguments you're making. They only serve to distract - at best - and since they're demeaning to other historically oppressed groups, they contribute to oppression at worst.
Engage like an adult or move on.
I will also soon be deleting your other comment about DeSantis. Here, you ARE touching on a topic but you're making unsupported claims that contradict expert opinion, contradict scholastic experts, contradict historical experts. DeSantis is not a teacher and not pretending to act based on best teaching practices.
He knows that useful idiots get stirred up when the MAGA types say "WOKE" and make claims about black history and CRT and he's playing you like a little kitten, getting you to get all fearful and outraged over nonsense nothings.
Get the politicians out of the schoolrooms and let the adults do their work.
Florida will no doubt be bleeding teachers and professional educators soon, since they don't want to work in an anti-educational dictatorship. Sorry, Florida already is losing professional educators.
https://www.wesh.com/article/teacher-shortage-florida/44058116
I get, from a moden GOP point of view, they may prefer uneducated masses as they're more likely to vote GOP, they might think and will be easier to control. But employers don't want uneducated employees.
DeSantis is destroying Florida with his bid to match Trump in his anti-expert, anti-progress madness.
If you want to TRY to defend DeSantis' anti-education policies, YOU will have to provide support.
Why you? Because YOU are the one making unsupported claims contrary to expert opinion. YOU and your MAGA allies are the outliers in this conversation. Just like if I claim there's no evidence of Unicorns on the moon and you disagree, YOU would be the one who would have to support the claim. I'd just be stating the obvious.
AP, since Marshal won’t know, is a a curriculum program designed by the College Board in the 1950s - when Marshal thinks the US was great.
De Sacrilegious isn’t smarter than 4 generations of educators.
Answer to Galatians 2:11, Marshal. Or avoid it as the lying bibliolater you are.
Marshal again foregoes decent behavior and providing evidence to support his nonsense claims. And was deleted.
An example of one of his unsupported claims:
There is no widespread demand and/or support for the type of "1619 Project" and "CRT" indoctrination of the modern progressive from even the minority communities.
This, in reference to Florida schools.
The facts are that
1. CRT is a college level course, it's not being taught in secondary or grade schools. DeSantis lies overtly, clearly when he makes that claim.
2. There is widespread public support - especially in minority communities - for schools to do a better job of educating students about the real world racial injustices in our real history.
https://www.chalkbeat.org/2022/5/3/23055884/critical-race-theory-schools-polling
3. It's not indoctrination. It's teaching the full range of actual history in a way that owns up to our failures as well as teaching about our successes. A classroom that ONLY teaches students about "how great our nation is!" is indoctrination. Not the other way around.
Marshal again failed to comment in a respectful manner, providing support for his claims and without using the most vulgar, abusive, misogynistic and racist language. In a comment now-deleted, Marshal said...
This a bullshit description of my comments...even where I indulge in profane and obscene language. It's bullshit because it pretends your own behavior had nothing to do to provoke it.
1. It doesn't matter what you think I've done that you think gives you the right to engage in vulgar, abusive language. My blog, my rules. You won't engage in vulgar, abusive, misogynistic, anti-LGBTQ or racist language here. And it's not like you don't know what I'm asking. I've given you WAY too much leeway and pointed out the specific types of phrases YOU CAN NOT USE HERE.
Respect the rules.
2. Anyone can see that I'm being exceedingly polite in the face of a regular onslaught of attacks and the very worst of vulgarities from you. I do not call you names. I do not use abusive language towards you, by and large (I'm sure maybe I cross the line in my responses to you at times, but nothing like the vulgar assaults you engage in).
When you use p*****, b****, punks and thugs (referring to black people) or other language, it WILL be deleted. That's simply the rules and, like Trump, you are not above the rules here.
Neither DeSantis nor anyone else, needs to be a teacher to know what bullshit looks like.
Teaching is a science and a craft that educators spend years learning and crafting. It's true that teaching comes more naturally to some than others, but it's still a hard specialist to become and that requires education. That you all may get your feelings hurt because educational experts and historians describe history or science in ways that hurts your feelings does NOT make you qualified to decide what is and isn't history.
School systems have processes for approving educational practices and curricula. If you want to criticize the system, you first should be educated in it.
You can also ask reasonable questions if you don't understand something, if you do so in a polite manner.
But these attacks on educators, librarians, historians, scientists and other experts because you disagree with them is not based on equal footing. Sometimes, Marshal, you simply are NOT an expert. Same for me. I couldn't begin to teach physics or algebra, even, it's not my area of expertise. I wouldn't dream of criticizing a physics teacher if I disagreed with them... why would I?
Get the politics out of school. Hell, that's even what you all probably think you're doing. DeSantis THINKS that pushing non-scholastic garbage (Prager U, for instance) he's teaching "right" (or "white") history, but that's just his attempt to do the same thing that he's accusing experts of. The difference is that neither Prager nor DeSantis are experts. Their indoctrinators trying with great effort to do exactly what they're accusing the educational experts of doing.
August 26, 2023 at 8:15 AM
"Marshal again foregoes decent behavior and providing evidence to support his nonsense claims. And was deleted. "
That's not why you deleted me. "Decent" behavior doesn't include lying. You should stop doing that.
"An example of one of his unsupported claims:"
An excellent way to prove my claim has no support is to support your implication the opposite of it is true. Instead, you link to Chalkbeat which backs my position.
" CRT is a college level course, it's not being taught in secondary or grade schools. DeSantis lies overtly, clearly when he makes that claim."
This is similar to the "Don't Say 'Gay'" nonsense you modern progressives were lying about. The following links provide clarification which doesn't support your lies about DeSantis lying. The first describes DeSantis' actual actions with regard to both schools and busineses. The second, which was embedded in the first, shows how the concerns have manifested in Virginia's Loudon County schools, with indication of similar in AZ. The third, which was embedded in the second, give examples of how CRT is indeed being pushed into kids by various means, mostly as regards teaching methods:
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/desantis-critical-race-theory-training-schools-corporate-america
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/virginia-school-districts-deny-teaching-critical-race-theory-evidence
https://defendinged.org/incidents/yesvirginiacrtisinvirginaschools/
As regard you point #3, it is indoctrination when the concepts of CRT and the lies of the 1619 Project are worked into teaching in any way. And with the backing of your Chalkbeat link, most parents are not looking for what your WhiteGuilted hustlers are pushing.
Galatians 2:11, Marshal. One Apostle condemns another for badly teaching new Christians. You can’t deal with how it destroys your claim that Apostles spoke the Word of God perfectly. You bibliolater.
Couldn’t deal with scripture. The only god you have. Told you.
Tell us, Marshal, how you waffle out of “stood condemned” when you claim all Apostles speak for god perfectly.
Stay in character.
Marshal is gutless: he won’t back up his claim and neither will he simply say he’s wrong to assume eternal perfection in a material object written and translated and printed by human beings.
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