Actually, there was no lust evident yesterday. But there was plenty of love, Grace, community and solidarity. You shouldn't comment on something you know nothing about, Marshall.
This was a family-friendly day of children and parents, churches and neighbors, sweet hugs and holding hands and a very strong message against hatred and violence.
Now, if you have polite questions or comments, I am glad to hear them, Marshall. But I will abide no hateful comments on this post.
Marshall, any comments that offer your ugly and negative opinions that are stated as if they are a fact, any attempts to slander others who you do not even know, any false claims you make about others... those comments will not stand, at least in this post.
The truth is only ugly to you, Dan. While the truth might be painful for even good, honest and moral people, for those such as yourself, it anathema to your corrupt heart. So you lie about me and by deleting my comments, you expect your readers (who are so few and usually just Craig and myself) to take your lying word for it.
Marshall, I'm not going to let you talk trash about people you don't even know. It's just not going to happen. I hope that you can understand the arrogance in slandering people you literally do not even know and just move on, since you have not a thing positive to add here. Regardless, your slander and ignorant false claims will not stand, so just quit.
It's one thing to attack me, over and over, with your ad hom attacks and unsupported charges, I tend to let them stand. But I will not allow you to slander people you don't know who don't know you.
Marshall, it is contemptuous of you to make these evil and ignorant comparisons. You are acting in a vile manner. Stop, in the name of all that is good and holy.
Marshall, it is contemptible and disgusting of you to make these evil and ignorant comparisons. You are acting in a vile manner. Stop, in the name of all that is good and holy.
To what evil and ignorant comparisons are you referring. I'm unaware of any I'm making, as that is not something I do...except in comparing you to a horse's hindquarters...which might be a bit evil, but not so much ignorant.
Wow. I can see why you delete my comments!! When you don't, your lie is apparent to all!! Your last comment is so transparently a lie given the comment of mine to which it is a response. I insist my original comment was indeed ON TOPIC and NOT an ad hom, and you respond that I don't have anything to say that's on topic and not an ad hom! Incredible!
And just in case you are truly confused: This is a post celebrating love, celebrating family and community and human kindness. This is a post in opposition to the oppression of anyone, but specifically our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters.
If you have something to comment that helps celebrate love, community, family and is supportive of the LGBTQ community, you are welcome to post it. Comments criticizing love, community, family or the LGBTQ community will be deleted.
I hope you can understand. That is the topic of the post.
Sigh. Marshall, on topic and end the silly ad hom attacks. I don't care as long as it's me you're attacking, it's just very tedious and I'm rather embarrassed for you.
"Pride goes before destruction, a haughty spirit before a fall." "...to turn them from wrongdoing and keep them from pride,..." "In his pride the wicked man does not seek him; in all his thoughts there is no room for God." "Let their lying lips be silenced, for with pride and contempt they speak arrogantly against the righteous." " To fear the Lord is to hate evil; I hate pride and arrogance, evil behavior and perverse speech." "When pride comes, then comes disgrace, but with humility comes wisdom." "Pride brings a person low, but the lowly in spirit gain honor." "The arrogance of man will be brought low and human pride humbled; the Lord alone will be exalted in that day,..." "I will punish the world for its evil, the wicked for their sins. I will put an end to the arrogance of the haughty and will humble the pride of the ruthless." "The pride of your heart has deceived you,..."
I'm sure this will be deleted, but it's maybe another look at pride.
"This is a post celebrating love, celebrating family and community and human kindness. This is a post in opposition to the oppression of anyone, but specifically our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters."
Really, it sounds like it's celebrating Pride, given the title and all.
Craig, I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that you are not ignorant of the difference between haughty pride/arrogance of the sort you mentioned and healthy, positive, "we're going to be all right, stop hating ourselves" sort of encouragement at the heart of these sorts o CNN events. If you truly are ignorant/uninformed and wish to ask a respectful question, that would be appropriate and relate to the topic.I would entertain such respectful questions but not silly, off-topic attacks.
I'm trying to educate you, if you are ignorant of what they mean, to what the point of the parades are. Instead of being snarky, would you like to know what we mean, or are you deliberately choosing ignorance?
Guys, this is a positive, loving, grace-filled event, and you're taking every possibility to tear it down. Embrace grace, men.
I'm aware of what pride means, I'm aware of the wide variety of things that take place at these events, I have no need for indoctrination or propaganda. I also can take a look at scripture and read the plain text and get a different view of human pride.
You SAY you are aware of what pride means, but then you cite a bunch of verses that are very literally NOT what pride means in this context.
DO you understand that, Craig?
Please answer that question or quit commenting.
If you DO understand it, then perhaps a retraction and apology is in order for posting the false understanding above? I'll also entertain that retraction and apology, by way of saying that you are here commenting in good faith.
Given your still obtuse and misleading comments, it sounds like you do not understand. So, last time, do you want to be corrected or correct your false claims or are you just here as an abusive or ignorant commenter?
How many gay pride events have you attended? What "wide variety" of things do you think took place at ours?
Prayer..? Because that took place. Loving hugs and support? Took place. A denouncing of the sort of senseless violence that took place in Orlando? That took place. Families enjoying a fun walk in a safe crowd of loving people? Took place. Handing out condoms and health information to encourage safer, healthier sexual activity? That took place. Coming together to support human rights and dignity? Took place. A bunch of floats with fun, laughing people having a healthy good time? That took place, too.
Which of these have ANYTHING to do with your hateful suggestion of the negative sort of pride you cited?
Don't be a hater, and don't be ignorant.
Now, Craig, truly, you can recant and repent, or you can quit commenting on this post. ANY comments from you that do not begin with Sorry, I was wrong because... with some legitimate, non-sarcastic repentance will be deleted.
I understand that you say so. I do not see that you have any standing to state authoritatively what the term pride means in the scripture quoted. Are you telling me that God has told you what is meant by the term pride and how it relates to your pet political cause? Really, this is the point where you expect me to believe that you speak for God?
? You truly just don't understand what people from a different place are speaking of, do you? For that reason, I'm going to assume you are so mixed up, you just don't know what I am speaking of and I'll give you one more chance.
Read and understand:
I am not making any claim about what God has said about pride.
God did not physically appear and have any commentary to make about this parade or its name.
I'm talking about Pride, as people like us are using it here, in this very specific case.
Do you understand that?
Do you understand how WE are speaking of pride is NOT the same as what you hinted at with your innuendo?
Or is it the case that you think there is only one way to use the word, Pride and you get to define that?
Hopefully, you now understand that I'm speaking of something different and you will realize your mistake and, being a good and honorable man, you will admit your error.
Please answer the questions asked of you or do not comment further, and we'll let the absence of a recanting speak for itself and your character.
You were warned, Craig. Your comments where you continue to ignore your false claims and continue to attack, rather than humble yourself have been deleted and, absent an admission of your mistake, further comments will be deleted as well.
I'm leaving your hateful and slanderous comments above so that it's clear what I'm speaking of. Any objective reader can see that the point of THIS post was celebrating love, family, community and standing opposed to oppression and violence and that YOU opted to suggest that somehow we were celebrating harmful pride and, when I assumed it was an honest mistake on your part and clarified for you, you refused to admit the error.
Anyone can see, now Craig, that your comments are born, ironically, of pride and arrogance in the negative sense, given your lack of humility and unwillingness to admit a simple mistake.
First, I copied all the comments, so you won't be able to lie quite so blatantly this time.
"You truly just don't understand what people from a different place are speaking of, do you?"
Sure I do, I understand you just fine.
"I am not making any claim about what God has said about pride."
OK, but it sure sounds like these are claims.
a. "I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that you are not ignorant of the difference between haughty pride/arrogance of the sort you mentioned and healthy, positive, "we're going to be all right, stop hating ourselves" sort of encouragement at the heart of these sorts o CNN events."
b. You SAY you are aware of what pride means, but then you cite a bunch of verses that are very literally NOT what pride means in this context.
c. Which of these have ANYTHING to do with your hateful suggestion of the negative sort of pride you cited?
I'll deal with them separately.
a. You are quite clearly making the claim that you have objectively certain knowledge that the "type of pride" being referred to in the scriptures is one specific certain "type of pride" to the exclusion of all other "type(s) of pride", you are further making the claim of fact that you can speak with authority and objectively to the motivations of every person who attended this event. You are further claiming that every single person was solely and completely motivated by what you seem to be saying is "good or healthy" pride.
b. Again your are making a claim that you have objective knowledge of the entirety of what "pride means" in both the Biblical context as well as the parade context.
c. Again, the claim that you have objective knowledge about the "types" of pride in both contexts. I'd love to know how you objectively know that the type of pride on display at the bondage tree was the "good" "healthy" pride and not the kind the scriptures warn against.
Since that only way you could have objective knowledge about the scriptures is from God, then either you need to modify your claims or acknowledge that you are trying to speak for God.
I understand that you are making a claim, that is based on you extrapolating your feelings out to hundreds of other people with no real objective knowledge of their feelings or motivations. I understand that for you to maintain your feelings about this particular social/political event, that you need for there to be "good" pride and "bad" pride. Yet you can't demonstrate objectively that the pride the Bible speaks of is anything other than pride in human pursuits. If you look more broadly at how pride is treated in the Bible the "good" pride is entirely based in what God does/or has done for Hid people, not in what people do for themselves. Look, I understand, more than you want to acknowledge about how commitments to things might tempt us to try to come up with justifications for all sorts of things.
"Do you understand how WE are speaking of pride is NOT the same as what you hinted at with your innuendo?"
There was no innuendo. Simply a small sample of what the Bible says about pride. I'm sorry if accurately quoting scripture offends you. But the verses were both accurately quoted and completely on topic for a post with the word pride in the title. Again, if you have something objective that supports your two prides hunch, by all means let's see it. I also understand that this is either YOU (not we)speaking, or you are suggesting that you are empowered to speak for everyone at the march.
"Or is it the case that you think there is only one way to use the word, Pride and you get to define that?"
Nope, never said or even hinted that I believe that to be the case. I would be interested in where you believe you get the authority to define pride in multiple ways for your convenience. I would also wonder where you get the authority to speak for; the writers of the scriptures quoted, everyone present at the parade, or me.
"Please answer the questions asked of you or do not comment further, and we'll let the absence of a recanting speak for itself and your character."
In the absence of anything to recant, I'll instead let the fact that you take such great offense at scripture speak for both your character as well as your christianity.
The best part will be if you delete my comments before you give me the opportunity to jump through your hoops, which will demonstrate the fact that you are really just looking for an excuse to delete.
Again, be careful what you say, I've got copies.
I guess this last bit was prophetic since you did exactly what I predicted you'd do.
"I'm leaving your hateful and slanderous comments above..."
Thank you your the tolerance and grace this action shows. It also will point out the complete lack of either slander or hate as well, so thanks.
"Anyone can see, now Craig, that your comments are born, ironically, of pride and arrogance in the negative sense, given your lack of humility and unwillingness to admit a simple mistake."
So I guess it's only bad to "" YOU presume to know" someones "heart and make false claims from a place of ignorance and arrogance."
When you perceive that others have done it, but when you do it it's just one more way you show grace.
Craig, I have to tell you that I really doubt that you are this ignorant and unable to understand English words and communicate. It truly looks like you're being deliberately obtuse and abusive and arrogant... but at this point, against my better judgment, I'm giving you some benefit of the doubt. I will ask a few more questions and wait to see if you can answer in a rational, adult manner. Then I will either delete or leave your comments, depending on how you answer.
I'll give you that you at least responded to my questions, but the responses do not appear to be coming from a place of rational understanding.
"You truly just don't understand what people from a different place are speaking of, do you?"
Sure I do, I understand you just fine.
Then why, when the post is about celebrating life, love, family, community, do you think it is okay to post something as if we were celebrating "arrogance..."?
You claimed...
a. You are quite clearly making the claim that you have objectively certain knowledge that the "type of pride" being referred to in the scriptures is one specific certain "type of pride" to the exclusion of all other "type(s) of pride"
In Merriam Webster, THE VERY FIRST definition of pride is...
"a feeling that you respect yourself and deserve to be respected by other people"
THAT is what we are speaking of, the notion that ALL people deserve to be able to live freely and be respected AS a person by themselves and other people. In truth and objectively, WORDS HAVE MORE THAN ONE DEFINITION.
I'm not speaking to the various biblical quotes on Pride, but the ones you posted ALL had to do with arrogance, not self-respect and human dignity.
Do you understand that? If so, admit it.
you are further making the claim of fact that you can speak with authority and objectively to the motivations of every person who attended this event.
NO. I'm not. You are mistaken. That I speak to what speeches were made and the general conversations of the day is NOT saying, "That's what everyone there thought," it's saying what the general tone of the day by the organizers.
Look, if one attends a church service where there was a baby dedication, and the songs, the verses read, the speeches/sermons made all were about celebrating life and being there for these families... if the conversations you had that day were all uplifting words about how we DO celebrate life and will strive to be there for these families... if you then hear someone say - someone who WAS NOT THERE say, "Ya know, they were actually celebrating child slavery!" and they quote a bunch of quotes about child slavery and act as if that was the point of the day... given that...
DO you recognize that such a claim would be from a place of ignorance and that one could safely say, "That was NOT the point of the service at all!" with confidence, even if they don't know the motivations of everyone in attendance?
You are further claiming that every single person was solely and completely motivated by what you seem to be saying is "good or healthy" pride.
Do you understand that? If so, admit it.
THE POINT OF THE PARADE was to promote human dignity and worth and oppose oppression and harm. This was made clear in the many speeches and signs and talk amongst people that day. IF you had been there, you'd know that. But you weren't there, so I don't blame you that you are speaking from a place of total ignorance, but I do expect you to not presume to know what was going on there when you weren't there, because, being ignorant of what happened, that would be an arrogant thing to do.
SO, I've made it as clear as I can where you are mistaken. I've bolded the questions so you can see them and answer them.
At this point, you can admit your error and back down. OR, if you truly can't see your error - that I've demonstrated objectively is there - well, just know you are in error and your "concerns" that maybe all these people were actually celebrating arrogance, if ONLY they were aware of these Bible verses, are patronizing and, well, arrogant, even if that is not your intent, that is how they come across.
You know, I'm very willing to admit this arrogant tone is not intentional. You could truly be concerned because people came together to celebrate human dignity and worth around our LGBTQ community because YOU FEAR it is a celebration of rejecting God and embracing what is, IN YOUR HUMAN OPINION, a "bad lifestyle." But being arrogant from a place of ignorance, not knowing how you are sounding, is still speaking words that are arrogant and offensive.
Do you understand that?
You quoted...
"Let their lying lips be silenced, for with pride and contempt they speak arrogantly against the righteous."
Indeed. Given that verse you've given me, I will follow that suggestion. Hopefully, you'll be able to open your eyes, give a fresh look at what you've said and done, and recognize the arrogance and presumption in those words, even if they were not your intent, and you will recognize your misunderstanding and be man enough to admit the mistake. I hope so. I'm sure you're a good and moral man with your heart in the right place.
But if not, well, I've done what I can to point out the various objective mistakes you're making, I don't know what else I can do. I will take the advice of that verse and "silence your lips" in as much as the comments you make here that continue down a negative and harmful road.
sigh. Because your post contains false or at least unsupported claims, I'm deleting it, Craig.
Suffice to know that every single thing you have said is false or mistaken (well, ONE line you said MIGHT be true, I don't know, but it's unsupported and just an empty claim at this point). I'm still extending you the benefit of the doubt that it's coming from a place of ignorance and perhaps just being blinded to what I'm actually saying and reality, perhaps because your allegiance to your worldview makes you unable to see what other people are saying... I don't know how to explain it, other than how I've tried to.
I'm asking you to quit commenting on this post, as you truly seem unable to understand what I'm actually saying and that is leading you to make demonstrably false claims. I'm sure you don't understand and you THINK you are saying things that are right, but you're just not. You'll have to trust me on this, or at least accept my request because, my blog, my rules.
I knew you didn't have the self control not to falsely represent my comment. If you think deleting comments then characterizing them without giving people the ability to compare, helps your credibility, then good luck.
I also have to note that you're now free to falsely characterize my reason for not posting any more as well. I know this will get deleted and I don't intend for it to be posted. I just want to communicate to you that I get your strategy and that I don't think it helps you.
For my part, I'm sorry for whatever failures I've had in communicating with you and being graceful towards you that has encouraged this antagonistic attitude with which you write. I simply disagree with you and have not, on this topic, found a way to communicate with you that you are able to understand. I do apologize for not being able to figure that out.
Of course, believe it or not, I have no intent to falsely characterize any of your words, sorry it appears that way. It's just not the case.
Of course, I have no "strategy" other than trying to communicate.
43 comments:
Actually, there was no lust evident yesterday. But there was plenty of love, Grace, community and solidarity. You shouldn't comment on something you know nothing about, Marshall.
This was a family-friendly day of children and parents, churches and neighbors, sweet hugs and holding hands and a very strong message against hatred and violence.
Now, if you have polite questions or comments, I am glad to hear them, Marshall. But I will abide no hateful comments on this post.
None.
My comment above was in reaction to a hateful response borne of ignorance. I decided to remove the vile pollution. He should know better.
Marshall, any comments that offer your ugly and negative opinions that are stated as if they are a fact, any attempts to slander others who you do not even know, any false claims you make about others... those comments will not stand, at least in this post.
You'll just have to get over it.
~Dan
The truth is only ugly to you, Dan. While the truth might be painful for even good, honest and moral people, for those such as yourself, it anathema to your corrupt heart. So you lie about me and by deleting my comments, you expect your readers (who are so few and usually just Craig and myself) to take your lying word for it.
Marshall, do you have anything positive to say about this post, or are you just all attack, all the time?
Do you recognize that repeated ad hom attacks only serve to minimize anything you might actually have to say?
Marshall, I'm not going to let you talk trash about people you don't even know. It's just not going to happen. I hope that you can understand the arrogance in slandering people you literally do not even know and just move on, since you have not a thing positive to add here. Regardless, your slander and ignorant false claims will not stand, so just quit.
It's one thing to attack me, over and over, with your ad hom attacks and unsupported charges, I tend to let them stand. But I will not allow you to slander people you don't know who don't know you.
Marshall, it is contemptuous of you to make these evil and ignorant comparisons. You are acting in a vile manner. Stop, in the name of all that is good and holy.
Marshall, it is contemptible and disgusting of you to make these evil and ignorant comparisons. You are acting in a vile manner. Stop, in the name of all that is good and holy.
To what evil and ignorant comparisons are you referring. I'm unaware of any I'm making, as that is not something I do...except in comparing you to a horse's hindquarters...which might be a bit evil, but not so much ignorant.
"Stop, in the name of all that is good and holy."
Would that be my understanding of all that is good and holy, or yours? Big difference. Too much of what you think is good and holy isn't.
Do you have anything to say on topic that is not an ad hom attack? If not, I'll invite you to move on.
~Dan
I already did have something to say that was on topic and not an ad hom. You deleted it because the truth is abhorrent to you.
So, that's a NO, you DON'T have anything to say on topic that isn't an ad hom attack? Got it. That being the case, move on.
~Dan
Wow. I can see why you delete my comments!! When you don't, your lie is apparent to all!! Your last comment is so transparently a lie given the comment of mine to which it is a response. I insist my original comment was indeed ON TOPIC and NOT an ad hom, and you respond that I don't have anything to say that's on topic and not an ad hom! Incredible!
So, that's a NO, you DON'T have anything on topic to say that isn't an ad hom attack? Got it. Move on.
~Dan
And just in case you are truly confused: This is a post celebrating love, celebrating family and community and human kindness. This is a post in opposition to the oppression of anyone, but specifically our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters.
If you have something to comment that helps celebrate love, community, family and is supportive of the LGBTQ community, you are welcome to post it. Comments criticizing love, community, family or the LGBTQ community will be deleted.
I hope you can understand. That is the topic of the post.
~Dan
You mean, kinda like your Easter posts, right? It does what you say it does by referring to something totally unrelated. Got it.
Sigh. Marshall, on topic and end the silly ad hom attacks. I don't care as long as it's me you're attacking, it's just very tedious and I'm rather embarrassed for you.
"Pride goes before destruction, a haughty spirit before a fall."
"...to turn them from wrongdoing and keep them from pride,..."
"In his pride the wicked man does not seek him; in all his thoughts there is no room for God."
"Let their lying lips be silenced, for with pride and contempt they speak arrogantly against the righteous."
" To fear the Lord is to hate evil; I hate pride and arrogance, evil behavior and perverse speech."
"When pride comes, then comes disgrace, but with humility comes wisdom."
"Pride brings a person low, but the lowly in spirit gain honor."
"The arrogance of man will be brought low and human pride humbled; the Lord alone will be exalted in that day,..."
"I will punish the world for its evil, the wicked for their sins. I will put an end to the arrogance of the haughty and will humble the pride of the ruthless."
"The pride of your heart has deceived you,..."
I'm sure this will be deleted, but it's maybe another look at pride.
"This is a post celebrating love, celebrating family and community and human kindness. This is a post in opposition to the oppression of anyone, but specifically our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters."
Really, it sounds like it's celebrating Pride, given the title and all.
Craig, on topic, please. Come, reason like adults. Please and thanks.
Craig, I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that you are not ignorant of the difference between haughty pride/arrogance of the sort you mentioned and healthy, positive, "we're going to be all right, stop hating ourselves" sort of encouragement at the heart of these sorts o CNN events. If you truly are ignorant/uninformed and wish to ask a respectful question, that would be appropriate and relate to the topic.I would entertain such respectful questions but not silly, off-topic attacks.
"Of events..." Not sure where the CNN came from.
Hey you define pride however you want. It's fine with me.
I'm trying to educate you, if you are ignorant of what they mean, to what the point of the parades are. Instead of being snarky, would you like to know what we mean, or are you deliberately choosing ignorance?
Guys, this is a positive, loving, grace-filled event, and you're taking every possibility to tear it down. Embrace grace, men.
I'm aware of what pride means, I'm aware of the wide variety of things that take place at these events, I have no need for indoctrination or propaganda. I also can take a look at scripture and read the plain text and get a different view of human pride.
You SAY you are aware of what pride means, but then you cite a bunch of verses that are very literally NOT what pride means in this context.
DO you understand that, Craig?
Please answer that question or quit commenting.
If you DO understand it, then perhaps a retraction and apology is in order for posting the false understanding above? I'll also entertain that retraction and apology, by way of saying that you are here commenting in good faith.
Given your still obtuse and misleading comments, it sounds like you do not understand. So, last time, do you want to be corrected or correct your false claims or are you just here as an abusive or ignorant commenter?
How many gay pride events have you attended? What "wide variety" of things do you think took place at ours?
Prayer..? Because that took place.
Loving hugs and support? Took place.
A denouncing of the sort of senseless violence that took place in Orlando? That took place.
Families enjoying a fun walk in a safe crowd of loving people? Took place.
Handing out condoms and health information to encourage safer, healthier sexual activity? That took place.
Coming together to support human rights and dignity? Took place.
A bunch of floats with fun, laughing people having a healthy good time? That took place, too.
Which of these have ANYTHING to do with your hateful suggestion of the negative sort of pride you cited?
Don't be a hater, and don't be ignorant.
Now, Craig, truly, you can recant and repent, or you can quit commenting on this post. ANY comments from you that do not begin with Sorry, I was wrong because... with some legitimate, non-sarcastic repentance will be deleted.
This is a reasonable and moral request.
Humble thyself, mortal.
"DO you understand that, Craig?"
I understand that you say so. I do not see that you have any standing to state authoritatively what the term pride means in the scripture quoted. Are you telling me that God has told you what is meant by the term pride and how it relates to your pet political cause? Really, this is the point where you expect me to believe that you speak for God?
? You truly just don't understand what people from a different place are speaking of, do you? For that reason, I'm going to assume you are so mixed up, you just don't know what I am speaking of and I'll give you one more chance.
Read and understand:
I am not making any claim about what God has said about pride.
God did not physically appear and have any commentary to make about this parade or its name.
I'm talking about Pride, as people like us are using it here, in this very specific case.
Do you understand that?
Do you understand how WE are speaking of pride is NOT the same as what you hinted at with your innuendo?
Or is it the case that you think there is only one way to use the word, Pride and you get to define that?
Hopefully, you now understand that I'm speaking of something different and you will realize your mistake and, being a good and honorable man, you will admit your error.
Please answer the questions asked of you or do not comment further, and we'll let the absence of a recanting speak for itself and your character.
You were warned, Craig. Your comments where you continue to ignore your false claims and continue to attack, rather than humble yourself have been deleted and, absent an admission of your mistake, further comments will be deleted as well.
I'm leaving your hateful and slanderous comments above so that it's clear what I'm speaking of. Any objective reader can see that the point of THIS post was celebrating love, family, community and standing opposed to oppression and violence and that YOU opted to suggest that somehow we were celebrating harmful pride and, when I assumed it was an honest mistake on your part and clarified for you, you refused to admit the error.
Anyone can see, now Craig, that your comments are born, ironically, of pride and arrogance in the negative sense, given your lack of humility and unwillingness to admit a simple mistake.
I hope that one day you may repent.
First, I copied all the comments, so you won't be able to lie quite so blatantly this time.
"You truly just don't understand what people from a different place are speaking of, do you?"
Sure I do, I understand you just fine.
"I am not making any claim about what God has said about pride."
OK, but it sure sounds like these are claims.
a. "I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that you are not ignorant of the difference between haughty pride/arrogance of the sort you mentioned and healthy, positive, "we're going to be all right, stop hating ourselves" sort of encouragement at the heart of these sorts o CNN events."
b. You SAY you are aware of what pride means, but then you cite a bunch of verses that are very literally NOT what pride means in this context.
c. Which of these have ANYTHING to do with your hateful suggestion of the negative sort of pride you cited?
I'll deal with them separately.
a. You are quite clearly making the claim that you have objectively certain knowledge that the "type of pride" being referred to in the scriptures is one specific certain "type of pride" to the exclusion of all other "type(s) of pride", you are further making the claim of fact that you can speak with authority and objectively to the motivations of every person who attended this event. You are further claiming that every single person was solely and completely motivated by what you seem to be saying is "good or healthy" pride.
b. Again your are making a claim that you have objective knowledge of the entirety of what "pride means" in both the Biblical context as well as the parade context.
c. Again, the claim that you have objective knowledge about the "types" of pride in both contexts. I'd love to know how you objectively know that the type of pride on display at the bondage tree was the "good" "healthy" pride and not the kind the scriptures warn against.
Since that only way you could have objective knowledge about the scriptures is from God, then either you need to modify your claims or acknowledge that you are trying to speak for God.
"Do you understand that?"
I understand that you are making a claim, that is based on you extrapolating your feelings out to hundreds of other people with no real objective knowledge of their feelings or motivations. I understand that for you to maintain your feelings about this particular social/political event, that you need for there to be "good" pride and "bad" pride. Yet you can't demonstrate objectively that the pride the Bible speaks of is anything other than pride in human pursuits. If you look more broadly at how pride is treated in the Bible the "good" pride is entirely based in what God does/or has done for Hid people, not in what people do for themselves. Look, I understand, more than you want to acknowledge about how commitments to things might tempt us to try to come up with justifications for all sorts of things.
"Do you understand how WE are speaking of pride is NOT the same as what you hinted at with your innuendo?"
There was no innuendo. Simply a small sample of what the Bible says about pride. I'm sorry if accurately quoting scripture offends you. But the verses were both accurately quoted and completely on topic for a post with the word pride in the title. Again, if you have something objective that supports your two prides hunch, by all means let's see it. I also understand that this is either YOU (not we)speaking, or you are suggesting that you are empowered to speak for everyone at the march.
"Or is it the case that you think there is only one way to use the word, Pride and you get to define that?"
Nope, never said or even hinted that I believe that to be the case. I would be interested in where you believe you get the authority to define pride in multiple ways for your convenience. I would also wonder where you get the authority to speak for; the writers of the scriptures quoted, everyone present at the parade, or me.
"Please answer the questions asked of you or do not comment further, and we'll let the absence of a recanting speak for itself and your character."
In the absence of anything to recant, I'll instead let the fact that you take such great offense at scripture speak for both your character as well as your christianity.
The best part will be if you delete my comments before you give me the opportunity to jump through your hoops, which will demonstrate the fact that you are really just looking for an excuse to delete.
Again, be careful what you say, I've got copies.
I guess this last bit was prophetic since you did exactly what I predicted you'd do.
The whole deleting thing is a great way to avoid the questions asked in those comments without actually having to put forth the effort to dodge them.
"I'm leaving your hateful and slanderous comments above..."
Thank you your the tolerance and grace this action shows. It also will point out the complete lack of either slander or hate as well, so thanks.
"Anyone can see, now Craig, that your comments are born, ironically, of pride and arrogance in the negative sense, given your lack of humility and unwillingness to admit a simple mistake."
So I guess it's only bad to "" YOU presume to know" someones "heart and make false claims from a place of ignorance and arrogance."
When you perceive that others have done it, but when you do it it's just one more way you show grace.
Craig, I have to tell you that I really doubt that you are this ignorant and unable to understand English words and communicate. It truly looks like you're being deliberately obtuse and abusive and arrogant... but at this point, against my better judgment, I'm giving you some benefit of the doubt. I will ask a few more questions and wait to see if you can answer in a rational, adult manner. Then I will either delete or leave your comments, depending on how you answer.
I'll give you that you at least responded to my questions, but the responses do not appear to be coming from a place of rational understanding.
"You truly just don't understand what people from a different place are speaking of, do you?"
Sure I do, I understand you just fine.
Then why, when the post is about celebrating life, love, family, community, do you think it is okay to post something as if we were celebrating "arrogance..."?
You claimed...
a. You are quite clearly making the claim that you have objectively certain knowledge that the "type of pride" being referred to in the scriptures is one specific certain "type of pride" to the exclusion of all other "type(s) of pride"
In Merriam Webster, THE VERY FIRST definition of pride is...
"a feeling that you respect yourself and deserve to be respected by other people"
THAT is what we are speaking of, the notion that ALL people deserve to be able to live freely and be respected AS a person by themselves and other people. In truth and objectively, WORDS HAVE MORE THAN ONE DEFINITION.
I'm not speaking to the various biblical quotes on Pride, but the ones you posted ALL had to do with arrogance, not self-respect and human dignity.
Do you understand that? If so, admit it.
you are further making the claim of fact that you can speak with authority and objectively to the motivations of every person who attended this event.
NO. I'm not. You are mistaken. That I speak to what speeches were made and the general conversations of the day is NOT saying, "That's what everyone there thought," it's saying what the general tone of the day by the organizers.
Do you understand that? If so, admit it.
More...
Look, if one attends a church service where there was a baby dedication, and the songs, the verses read, the speeches/sermons made all were about celebrating life and being there for these families... if the conversations you had that day were all uplifting words about how we DO celebrate life and will strive to be there for these families... if you then hear someone say - someone who WAS NOT THERE say, "Ya know, they were actually celebrating child slavery!" and they quote a bunch of quotes about child slavery and act as if that was the point of the day... given that...
DO you recognize that such a claim would be from a place of ignorance and that one could safely say, "That was NOT the point of the service at all!" with confidence, even if they don't know the motivations of everyone in attendance?
You are further claiming that every single person was solely and completely motivated by what you seem to be saying is "good or healthy" pride.
Do you understand that? If so, admit it.
THE POINT OF THE PARADE was to promote human dignity and worth and oppose oppression and harm. This was made clear in the many speeches and signs and talk amongst people that day. IF you had been there, you'd know that. But you weren't there, so I don't blame you that you are speaking from a place of total ignorance, but I do expect you to not presume to know what was going on there when you weren't there, because, being ignorant of what happened, that would be an arrogant thing to do.
SO, I've made it as clear as I can where you are mistaken. I've bolded the questions so you can see them and answer them.
At this point, you can admit your error and back down. OR, if you truly can't see your error - that I've demonstrated objectively is there - well, just know you are in error and your "concerns" that maybe all these people were actually celebrating arrogance, if ONLY they were aware of these Bible verses, are patronizing and, well, arrogant, even if that is not your intent, that is how they come across.
You know, I'm very willing to admit this arrogant tone is not intentional. You could truly be concerned because people came together to celebrate human dignity and worth around our LGBTQ community because YOU FEAR it is a celebration of rejecting God and embracing what is, IN YOUR HUMAN OPINION, a "bad lifestyle." But being arrogant from a place of ignorance, not knowing how you are sounding, is still speaking words that are arrogant and offensive.
Do you understand that?
You quoted...
"Let their lying lips be silenced, for with pride and contempt they speak arrogantly against the righteous."
Indeed. Given that verse you've given me, I will follow that suggestion. Hopefully, you'll be able to open your eyes, give a fresh look at what you've said and done, and recognize the arrogance and presumption in those words, even if they were not your intent, and you will recognize your misunderstanding and be man enough to admit the mistake. I hope so. I'm sure you're a good and moral man with your heart in the right place.
But if not, well, I've done what I can to point out the various objective mistakes you're making, I don't know what else I can do. I will take the advice of that verse and "silence your lips" in as much as the comments you make here that continue down a negative and harmful road.
Ball's in your park.
Looks like I somehow managed to leave out a line or did something wrong. After you said...
You are further claiming that every single person was solely and completely motivated by what you seem to be saying is "good or healthy" pride.
I have...
Do you understand that? If so, admit it.
It should, of course, have read...
You are further claiming that every single person was solely and completely motivated by what you seem to be saying is "good or healthy" pride.
No, I'm not. That I speak to the speeches, the songs, the conversations of the day, is NOT to say what everyone person's motivations were.
Do you understand that? If so, admit it.
sigh. Because your post contains false or at least unsupported claims, I'm deleting it, Craig.
Suffice to know that every single thing you have said is false or mistaken (well, ONE line you said MIGHT be true, I don't know, but it's unsupported and just an empty claim at this point). I'm still extending you the benefit of the doubt that it's coming from a place of ignorance and perhaps just being blinded to what I'm actually saying and reality, perhaps because your allegiance to your worldview makes you unable to see what other people are saying... I don't know how to explain it, other than how I've tried to.
I'm asking you to quit commenting on this post, as you truly seem unable to understand what I'm actually saying and that is leading you to make demonstrably false claims. I'm sure you don't understand and you THINK you are saying things that are right, but you're just not. You'll have to trust me on this, or at least accept my request because, my blog, my rules.
Thank you, and good luck.
~Dan
I knew you didn't have the self control not to falsely represent my comment. If you think deleting comments then characterizing them without giving people the ability to compare, helps your credibility, then good luck.
I also have to note that you're now free to falsely characterize my reason for not posting any more as well.
I know this will get deleted and I don't intend for it to be posted. I just want to communicate to you that I get your strategy and that I don't think it helps you.
For my part, I'm sorry for whatever failures I've had in communicating with you and being graceful towards you that has encouraged this antagonistic attitude with which you write. I simply disagree with you and have not, on this topic, found a way to communicate with you that you are able to understand. I do apologize for not being able to figure that out.
Of course, believe it or not, I have no intent to falsely characterize any of your words, sorry it appears that way. It's just not the case.
Of course, I have no "strategy" other than trying to communicate.
Peace to you.
~Dan
If that makes you happy..,
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