Monday, July 27, 2009

White-Washed Tombs

White Turtle Shell
Originally uploaded by paynehollow
I was recently in a conversation with a true patriarchalist (ie, doesn't think women should vote!! Literally!) who is just a bit irrational in more ways than one. He was complaining viciously about CPS (Child Protective Services) saying that they are kidnappers and that they "arrest the victim" when they intervene (ie, removing the child from danger = "arrest"). He brought up the red herring of "taking care of families ought to be the business of churches and communities and families, not the government," in order to further his rant against CPS. I responded...

On at least ONE point, you are right on, though. Churches and families OUGHT to be doing more about problems like this. I can tell you this, if the Church stepped up and "solved" homelessness and provided solutions for all the abused and mentally ill out there, it would put government right out of the welfare business and there's nothing in the world stopping the church (or synagogues or community groups, etc) from doing so.

Not only that, but I'd be willing to bet (since I know some of the people involved) that the vast majority of government social worker types would rejoice to be thus put out of jobs. Quite literally whoop and holler and say "Hallelujah! I'm out of a job because they eliminated the need for me!"

Further, I'd wager that such actions would do more to promote evangelism and church growth than ten million revival services or a hundred million televangelists. So, I'm glad to hear you say that churches should step up.

You may or may not know that "On any given night, 248,500 persons in families are homeless (HUD's 3rd Annual Homeless Assessment Report to Congress)," [source], or that "1.6 million people lived in transitional housing or in a shelter in 2008, slightly more than in the previous year. But families now make up about one-third of that number [ie, ~500,000]..."[source], or that it is estimated that up to 1/3 of the homeless population are US military veterans (an estimated 131,000 homeless on any given night) [ source], or that "the population of homeless children in the United States is estimated to range from five hundred thousand to more than two million," [source] or that there are an estimated 3.3 million people with severe mental illnesses [ source] - and that these numbers are very low estimates. Given all that and more, we can see that there are HUGE ministry opportunities for the church and families to step up and take action, to do with/for "the least of these."

I have to tell you, I am very glad that we can agree that the church should be doing more.

So, how many of these millions are you and your church helping right now?

How many more can we put you down for?

Are you prepared to take in a mentally challenged homeless lady and help her navigate through the rest of her life with her limitations?

Do you have room in your home for one more homeless family?

I have loved ones who work for Christian homelessness organizations, housing homeless families and striving to get them back in their homes and to keep their families intact. I'll be glad to give you the address so you can send a large check; maybe start a drive at your church to make more of an impact - unfortunately, the agency (like many helping agencies) are struggling right now, having not enough money to meet all the needs. Can we put you down for $100,000? $500,000?

Our church has homes we operate to help keep homeless women and their children off the streets. Can we expect a check from you to double our budget in order to help twice as many marginalized families who have no other support?

You get my point, I hope. The need is great and I would love it if churches and communities did more. In the meantime, if there is a child that is endangered, a mentally ill person who is homeless, a veteran who is in need of assistance, I'm more than glad to have a government agency step in and do something when we're all tapped out at our church and in my home.

When you start putting forth your part ("adopting" a homeless family, supporting with Big Bucks and time at a mental health agency or a homeless shelter, etc) to solve these problems, you can complain about the government doing a bad job. Until then, put up or shut up. Please.


I did a little search and found that WikiAnswers estimates that there are 450,000 churches in the US - Gallup estimates something like 320,000. If we assume that there are about, let's say, 4.5 million people who are homeless, mentally ill or otherwise in need of more support (ie, the least of these) and take the larger church estimate of 450,000, that means that each church could take responsibility for assisting ten people in need of serious support - some for the rest of their lives - and make a serious dent in these problems.

Once each church, faith tradition and community group/individuals starts putting forth THAT sort of effort to deal with problems in the US (of course, that's ONLY the US, the world's wealthiest nation, but still, it's a starting point...), THEN the complainers might have some TINY room to legitimately complain a little.

Until then...


John said...

He brought up the red herring of "taking care of families ought to be the business of churches and communities and families, not the government," in order to further his rant against CPS.

This is one point at which my libertarianism breaks down because I think that the government should act as a safety net for children.

Making this comment at Hit & Run would result in a flamewar, so I'll just state it here.

Lawdoll said...

What you really need to research is the fact that CPS really is corrupt and do remove children needlessly all of the time.

Furthermore they fail to protect the children who need protection and many of these children are dying because of CPS's actions!!!!

Dan Trabue said...

Thanks for the thoughts, John.

Lawdoll, welcome to Payne Hollow.

I would ask that if you have allegations to make, that you support them. Unsupported allegations of an outrageous nature (ie, about a whole group of people, for instance) are, to me, just a step above a blatant lie. It is a way of gossiping and spreading falsehoods.

If you have legitimate complaints, lay out the facts. If you have only rumor and innuendo, I'd ask that you spread that sort of comment elsewhere.

Thank you.

(For instance, I suspect that you can't provide ONE instance of a child dying because of CPS actions. I'd probably have heard about that in the news. I would hate to state so to a complete stranger such as yourself, but I suspect that that is a bald-faced lie which you are spreading, perhaps in ignorance. If you have evidence support it. If not retract it and apologize.)

Lawdoll said...

Actually, I can post several documented case of children dying because of the actions of CPS..for instance the Danieal Kelly case in PA...The social workers in that case have been charged with crimes...

As for the other proof you can see documentation of forged documents on my blog, as well of many cases of children who have died because CPS did not do their job...

But you are probably one of those dogmatic people who no matter the amount of proof you hold stubornly hold onto you opinion. For the record I do not make accusations that I can't back up.

Lawdoll said...

Here is the news link to Danieal's story...

Dan Trabue said...

How about a link to a legitimate news story? Your "associated content" link does not appear to be a legitimate news agency and its story was written by "Marsha J" - generally, legitimate reporters use their actual names. There is no city or state mentioned in the "story."

Beyond that, CPS is not mentioned in the story. Rather, nine people are charged - none related to CPS - although, other than her mother, it is not clear who was charged for this crime - IF a crime even occurred. There are no quotes from the police, the attorneys or well, ANYONE.

I don't know if you are a legitimate "real" person or if you are just some odd troll making stuff up. But that "news" source is bogus, not real.

I looked at your Stopcorruptdss blog, but was not sure what I was seeing and could not see what your exact claim was.

It appears you have had problems in your past and with your own children, and I AM sorry for any troubles you have had. But as far as making your case, some coherent explanation of what exactly your charge is against CPS and some evidence is generally a good starting point.

Beyond that, I'm asking if this is a general problem with CPS, not if mistakes are ever made. Clearly, with any police force, military, hospital or CPS agency, mistakes are made. You seem to be claiming that there is a widespread problem with CPS. Evidence is needed to support such a claim. Any further posts here with no actual evidence will be deleted.

If you are truly someone who has had a hard life, God be with you and yours.

Dan Trabue said...

I did a little research and found out that there really is a Daniela Kelly who was a child who died due to neglect and some social workers, along with the parents, were charged.

From the Philadelphia Inquirer newspaper...

In privatizing social work, the city paid MultiEthnic Behavioral Health Inc. $3.7 million over six years to visit the homes of 500 children, including Danieal's.

Yesterday's indictment said that MultiEthnic's bosses and workers skipped visits, dummied records to show otherwise, and then shredded documents in a coverup to thwart FBI and police investigators.

So, the problem here appears not to be with CPS (I'm not sure that they had any hand directly in this) but when a PRIVATE social work firm horribly neglected to do that which they were paid for. Does that speak against the privatization of social work? Not necessarily.

But it's not a charge against CPS and if anything, would be evidence that the state needs to be MORE diligent in its social work type agencies.

Lawdoll said...

Is the Grand Jury Report enough proof of their wrong doing or do you need me to take you PA so you can interview the DA???

Direct quote from the article...

"That the people at the top walked away from their positions and even advanced without any significant consequences is a crime which almost equals or maybe surpasses the crime in this case," Common Pleas Court Judge Benjamin Lerner said.

No I didn't have a problem with my children CPS had a problem doing their job and investigating the abuse I reported. My blog is so simple a caveman could do it...the documents are all right there on the front page. Forged documents, pictures of abuse they ignored, the SW previous criminal history. The SW btw was arrested for her actions in our case for Felony Obstruction of I said do a bit more research, that are many case of CPS corruption..all you have to do is look.

I do not do this for any other reason then to protect our nations children...because the people who are legally obligated to do so are failing miserably.

Dan Trabue said...

Okay, once again, I'm sorry for any problems you may personally have with CPS. And clearly sometimes CPS makes mistakes.

The gist of this post, as it relates to CPS, is that there is no evidence of any widespread corruption. This DHS worker made errors and was held accountable for her mistakes. That is how it should be. Ideally, no mistakes would ever be made by doctors, social workers, police officers or the military. But it's not a perfect world.

But the instance of a mistake being made (or mistakeS being made) is not proof that CPS itself is corrupt.

Consider the reverse: Daniela's mother apparently made horrible decisions/mistakes/crimes. And she's not the only mother to do so - other mothers have caused the death of their children.

Shall we then say that all mothers are corrupt? It's not a logical conclusion.

Lawdoll said...

Are you kidding the Grand Jury report...these people had a document forging party after Danieal's death to cover their butts...

Once you read that report, you cannot deny the corruption and it is happening across this country.

While the mother is the person, first and foremost should have protected her daughter...CPS is paid to protect children when their parents fail to do so...they are not doing this and to cover up their failures they are forging documents, falsifying records, committing perjury, the list goes on.

Furthermore, there are also many case of SW being arrested for these behaviors as well as stealing, molesting children...the list goes on.

Yes CPS is, "The Corrupt Business of Child Protective Services," by Former GA Senator Nancy Schafer...or Washington Senator Pam Roach's blog.

Dan Trabue said...

The indictment you provided does point to several workers at Philadelphia DHS that failed at their jobs. The indictment says that this indicates a severe problem within Philadelphia DHS.

How is this an indictment on all CPS agencies across the nation?

I ask you once again, shall we indict all mothers because so many have been bad?

Beyond that, this indictment is a call to fix the DHS, not to eliminate it. That, again, was part of the point of the post. Until such time as private groups have effectively dealt with the needs out there, we NEED gov't to step in and do something.

Brett said...

Well hopefully I can get all these addresses posted for some reason most of the time I post a web address it never shows or the whole comment is blocked.

What Miss Lawdoll is refering to is correct. It actualy goes deeper then you think. There are more "mistakes" then can be reasnably accounted for. And the "corruption" is coast to coast, you just have to open your eyes to see it.

Foster Care worker OK'ed by the CPS to care for child KNOWING he had a criminal record and a violent one at that.

or how about an "distinguished Human Services caseworker" that kills a child by her own doing?

Or one case of a mother turning her self into CPS then ignored by the workers (I'm guessing to overshadow their ealier failure in Joleet Poole's case)

Blaitant rule/law violations maybe?

Will video of news fromt eh television help clarify?

Maybe another video about Joshua Smith. and has yet to be returned to the father even after a higher courts order to do so. this has been months.

Dont think this is a common re-ocurance? how about 70 caught all at once in a single state for not even attempting to do their jobs.,0,3634483.story

How about forgery?

This is just the tip of the iceburg. The list goes ona and on with deeper corruption. Right down to supervisors commiting molestation of several children during their reign of power.

John said...

Lawdoll, what would you propose as an alternative to CPS norms now?

Brett said...

I may not Be Lawdoll, However, CPS may not need abolished (completely anyways) I do see a need for CPS. But, with the statistics available the children (and families) would be safer with out the agency all together. The goal is SUPPOSED to be keeping the children safe and SUPPOSEDLY with the families when ever possible. But with the growing number in foster care (265,000 in the neighborhood of 2001-2003 and in 2006 was up to 510,000). It has become a multi billion dollar industry (Title IV funding and adoption bonuses from the ASFA).

They completely distort facts and the lines of what is deemed as "neglect" are subject to opinion not guideline. Neglect was almost unheard of in the 80s as it had to be actual severe cases such as locked away and no little to no food given.

Now if the house is "cluttered" or if you don't have sheets on the bed when they show up because they are in the laundry, or if your 1 and a half year old has a dirty diaper at 4 am when they show up at your home and everyone was sleeping. These are some of the reasons Ive heard and seen.

If CPS is to stay in place it needs a MAJOR revamp and to be held accountable on all levels for its failures and corruptions.

GP Chuck said...

Indeed homeless and death of children is a most grave situation for all to consider. And actually this conversation could become a Never Ending Story.

But just for a moment, let's go to the other end of the spectrum, and note both decisions where made by Social Workers, whose main purpose is to Recognize True Abuse.

These are both cases that members of our group helped get the children back. Both where claimed as Physical Abuse. The first, children were removed since they were taken to many times to Mc Donald's; the second the children were removed since there was no air conditioner. Not the mention, the second took a little longer since the agency couldn't decide which air conditioner was appropriate. No these did not make the news. And actually those who share their experiences are experiences that have personally happened to them. Experiences that we should not ask them to forget.

So, in your opinion, are these examples of true abuse???

I'm sure you have read the fiasco in Texas. One could ask, in this case why weren't the alleged abusers removed instead of the children??? Those who sought justice for the children being removed and won in the courts were answered by the agency trying to create a law to give the agency the power to get a warrant instead of law enforcement from the judge.

Luckily, this law was squashed by the Governor.

Please keep in mind the agency wants and continuously seeks Power to do what they want, not what should be done for families.

Every time a child is removed needlessly from a family, it unfortunately creates anger and distrust in this child against adults.

There are no easy answers, since True Abuse does exist. However, there have been to many times that the Bad Child is the Agency itself.

Just a thought for your consideration.

Dan Trabue said...

Thanks for the thoughts, all.

I would have to suggest though, that those who are citing abuse would do better to cite actual sources, rather than anecdotes.

Dan Trabue said...

And thanks for the actual links to stories. I've yet to review them, but presuming they're legitimate problems with CPS agencies cited, then those are indeed problems.

But does that mean we fix the problems or abolish the system we have in place?

John's question needs to be addressed: If we abolish the systems in place, what then?

Would Danieal have been NOT abused by her mother if NO ONE was there to oversee things?

Clearly, we need something.

Just as clearly, it is a difficult proposition.

The problem is that it's a difficult thing to accurately gauge which children are being legitimately abused, which parents may need to be separated from their children, which parents could benefit from some help, WHO will provide that help, etc, etc. It's a difficult task to deal with a problem as hidden as child abuse and the even more common (but not necessarily illegal) bad parenting.

Such difficult situations are only hurt by CPS agencies or workers not doing a good job or doing a blatantly bad job, but removing them altogether does nothing to solve the problems, either.

Brett's nine stories - if true and legitimate problems about CPS are covered - are horrifying. But then, nine cases - or even 100 cases, while too many, are most likely only the tip of the iceberg in terms of numbers helped, which I would guess runs in to the tens of thousands.

According to this site there are over 300,000 calls about potential abuse to CPS IN TEXAS alone. 300,000 investigations a year? What's that number nationally? 3 million?

If we have 100 or even 300 bad instances with CPS that's too many and we should strive to improve it, but still, with the numbers they serve, it hardly suggests a systemic problem.

Brett said...

in the story of 70 workers being investigated there are an average of about 20 cases these workers handle. Im sure the math is easy about 70x20=1400 cases (not just children but cases) I know of one worker that has had up to 28 cases. this is not from being over burdened this is from greed on their part. 28% of federal funding goes to DHHS (department of health and human services) and an exorbitant amount of that goes to CPS.

in my state 6.5% of the children are in foster care. but there is no incentive for them to reduce the numbers. with title IV funding they get 30,000 per year per child BASE LINE. This can go as high as 150,000 with special needs children. Special needs is easily obtainable with a diagnoses of ADHD, Depression (what child wouldnt be depressed being ripped from their parents?), PTSD (same thing and they cause it), Anxiety, among other overly diagnosed issues. Foster children are medicated at a much higher rate then non foster children. And often the parents are not even notified of these medications. then you get into another slippery slope. These medications have side effects. These side effects can be diagnosed as another problem and then they will prescribe yet another medication giving them 2 problems under special needs. just one of these problems will put a minimum at 40,000 a year.

now there are adoption bonuses too. 4,000 base then another 4,000 for adolescent and teens and another 8,000 for special needs. but the adoption does not stop the title IV funding they continue to get that on these children still. just at a SLIGHTLY reduced amount.

over 16,000 children in this state getting title IV funding times that by the BASE funding of 30,000 thats 480,000,000.

now the foster parents get their own funding too. about 700 dollars a month then there is special needs increases and then you also have vouchers for gas, clothing, school supplies, they receive medicate and food stamps for the state wards.

do some digging... SERIOUSLY dig, the information is out there. the rates of abuse and neglect are actually higher (per 100,000 children) in foster care then in the homes of biological families. As well as the death rates.

am I saying there are not children that need protection for their parent(s)? no, I am not saying that. but there needs a serious revamp and accountability for these agencies and their workers.

in the case of Sarah J. Powell, she is not the only one that does this she is the only one that has been caught. many of the victims of CPS tell a very similar version of how their workers do things in and out of court.

5-6 years ago I would have been in your shoes defending the state agencies. Now I know the truth and have seen the truth.

Dan Trabue said...

1. Sure there may be problems.

2. However, you sound a bit like a religious zealot, trying to win people to your cause. Red flags start flying with this approach.

3. The question remains, what do we do? Are you merely advocating reform? I can fully support striving to improve things. If you're suggesting getting rid of it, then what? I see that you don't want to get rid of it, then what are you advocating?

4. I have some experience in the mental health field and am somewhat familiar with at least some foster home cases. I am aware that some abuse has happened. At the same time, the money involved vs the responsibilities required make it not a very enticing proposition to be a foster parent for money. The cases where I've seen that happen have been where the foster parent just wasn't all that smart to be able to figure out it wasn't a good way to make money. I tend to doubt that the numbers - again, while always too high - are a large proportion of the whole. I expect that most foster parents do it for the right reasons (it's just not a financial winner to do it for greed).

Again, what do we do about this problem? There is a shortage of foster parents as it is.

My hunch would be that this is an area where we probably need to invest more money, although there's always room for improving operating procedures and accountability, too.

Brett said...

Illinois and Alabama have the lowest removal rate from parents, they also have a special program that is called "Family Preservation". It is an organization outside of the CPS that if the family needs help provides it to a much more involved extent. In cases where the "abuse" or "neglect" is not to a threatening level, They will have their workers visit the home several times a week for a few hours. They will work with the parents in finding services they need. if it merely financial help they will help get them in touch with programs that can help them in a tight spot. also if they need help with say cleaning up around their home, these workers are not to afraid to lend a hand but rolling up their sleeves and grabbing a rag. Not sating they will do their work for them but they will help. If that is the type of help they need because of medical reasons they can set up programs for long term help.

Family Preservation has a much higher rate of keeping children in the home and return rate for cases where the children originally couldn't stay. Since they are not paid by volume of children in the system, they don't have the corruption issues. Its a hands on approach that the CPS should be striving to emulate.

even if they don't do that they CAN pass legislation for only paying dollar for dollar what the CPS has spent and have accounting firms from other states oversee the books. with a NDP (non disclosure policy) from these accounting places the states would not know who to bribe for "working" the books. if the company breaks the NDP Then they are removed from the account(s).

Also complete transparency would help so that their actions are viewable by the public and officials that over see these agencies. At the moment they can cover most any trail they leave and it takes very in depth investigations to track down wrong doing.

If interested I have a rather large collection of things I would do as the head of the CPS department to clean up many of the problems I could either post here (but is long) or send to you.

with the proper rules and the social workers actually willing to do the job they say they try to do (its in their books to have "reasonable efforts to maintain a family unit"). But, without them being regulated and monitored and held accountable it is to open for corruption.

I know it sounds like zealotry. There is just so much information that the public does not know about them, when someone speaks up it sounds off the wall.. like I said I wouldn't have believed it 6 years ago.

Lawdoll said...

Govenment to step in and do something??? And what do you propose we do when they are failing to step in??? Because that is what they are doing!!!

Dan Trabue said...

Would it not be more correct to say that sometimes the CPS approach works really well, sometimes it only works satisfactorily and sometimes it fails miserably?

You're not suggesting that in every case having a CPS approach fails miserably, are you?

SO, if we are agreed that sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't, one question we might reasonably ask is how often does it work and how often does it fail? Does it work 99% of the time but we still have 1% horrible failures? Or does it only work 90% of the time with a huge 10% failure rate? Which, of course, is too large and something should be done, as Brett seems to be suggesting.

But going "something" to decrease the failure rate and eliminating the approach altogether are two different things.

If it's working most of the time then I think reasonable adults can agree that we need to do something to decrease the times it DOESN'T work, but still, we need someone watching out for children in those cases where families and community/church/friends fail.

Does this not seem reasonable?

Dan Trabue said...

By the way, what link or source led all of you all to this topic here?

Brett said...

I am a member of several CPS reform and awareness groups. And one of them made a mention of this post. how they found it I do not know. in those groups a few of them do daily news feeds from news papers to television news companies. We stay (or try to) as much as possible aware of what is going on with CPS. we also understand through the same news feeds that there IS a need for CPS or similar agency, just one that works.

There are hundreds of these "anti-CPS" and "CPS-Reform" groups out there. Its not just a few cases here and there. If you figure that not all these cases make the news and not every natural parent gets heard whether through intimidation of the courts or they don't know these resources exist, or maybe they don't have access to the internet on a regular bases. and to acknowledge the fact that not every one of them can be lying about their situation.

Parental Rights are being thrown out the door in "Family courts" every day. Which allows the CPS the freedom to say what they want and do as they please and get away with it. Also less evidence required means more room for doubt, so they do not have to worry about "beyond a reasonable doubt" anymore.

And there are many "Parental Rights Advocates" groups out there as well because of it. When I actually believe they should be more aptly named "Family Rights Advocates" since it is more then just parents that are being hurt and they are fighting for the children as well.

Look up NCCPR (National Coalition for Child Protection Reform)

here is their link

I truly hope you open your mind long enough to evaluate the entire situation. CPS is not all what its been made out to be. At least not any more.

Dan Trabue said...

My mind is open to actual evidence. That there are many groups out there of people who are disgruntled with CPS is not evidence. That there are some (as far as I can see from the evidence) isolated cases of abuse is not sufficient evidence.

Bring up evidence of systematic problems across each CPS unit in each county of the nation (or even of a large percentage) and you can easily convince me of your cause.

Generally speaking, though, when someone throws out isolated examples and claims these isolated examples indicate that the whole system is corrupt, it tends to sound like someone with an agenda.

I am interested in Truth and Facts, not supporting someone with an agenda. I hope you can understand my reasoning.

Look at it this way, are you suggesting a widespread conspiracy to abuse children and siphon money through CPS programs? That kind of conspiracy theory is hard to believe for logistics reasons if nothing else.

Or, are you merely suggesting that people who go into CPS work tend to be corrupt? That kind of theory suggests something contrary to human nature - that whole groups of people are actively seeking to scam the system and abuse children.

Both theories are hard to believe without solid evidence.

Brett said...

I see this is going nowhere fast. whether it is to preserve your outlook that the systems and in turn your life are near perfection. the information is out there I am not going to go county by county state by state and present the thousands of cases of corruption. And then try to make you realize that we only hear what the Media will tell us which is effected many times by the CPS (being a governmental agency). I'm not going to try and spoon feed someone the truth when they know how to feed themselves.

call us crazy if you must. but we have seen and read document after document news story after news story about this system.

"ignorance is bliss"

Lawdoll said...

They fail more then they just don't know it.

Lawdoll said...

The police would be a better source for child abuse incidents...they are better trained.

CPS is irrepairably broken and cannot be doesn't work. Don't the children of this country deserve to have a system that works for them, not covering their own butts and mistakes.

Dan Trabue said...

Last time, Lawdoll, if you have a source to prove your wild allegation, provide it. Otherwise, keep your rumors to yourself. We don't gossip much at Payne Hollow.

Brett said...

And then try to make you realize that we only hear what the Media will tell us which is effected many times by the CPS (being a governmental agency).

Brett, another red flag flies anytime someone who is not supporting their accusations name the media as part of a conspiracy to cover up the corrupt actions of gov't officials.

The media is in business to make money. IF there were a story that even 20% of CPS workers were corrupt and/or abusive, they would salivate to run the story. Why? Because it would be a big scoop of bad news and that sells and that would make them money and, as noted, that is why they are in business, generally.

When you begin suggesting I'm choosing ignorance when I don't believe unsupported claims, you also lose a great deal of points in the legitimacy department.

People, if you have a claim, support it. If you can't support it but you truly think that there is this great conspiracy out there to abuse children and get rich off CPS scams, then have some internal fortitude and go out there and prove your claims.

In the meantime, those who make unsupported and wild, unbelievable allegations will continue to get written off as kooks and extremists and those with an agenda and will be promptly ignored. Not just by me, but by the population at large.

In the meantime, I will delete any further unsupported allegations.

Brett said...

Forgive me, but I can not completely agree with the police/sheriff etc necessarily being the best option. Considering the case that made me start looking into things was started with the sheriff's dept.

I am in the belief that someone even government funded but without incentive for removal would be the best bet to oversee what ever agency is involved.

Brett said...

you wanted evidence of any corruption that can be shown as a trend. I figured the 70 case workers from a single state was a trend. do you have any clue how many links we would need to provide to do as you want as "proof". That is why I ask for you to look up these things yourself.

If we do "prove" our claims then what would you do with it? Would you enlighten the next 1,000 people? Would you some how miraculously change the system as a whole? Would you even care?

Tell me how many links of verifiable claims would it take? 100, 1,000, 10,000?

I mean if you want us to prove something let us know what your asking for exactly.

Alan said...

And all this has what, exactly, to do with the original post?

What exactly, other than posting comments on blogs, are people, (particularly churches and families, since that was ... whatdycallit ... the *point* of the post) doing to rectify problems they've found with CPS?

If it's true that CPS cannot be reformed at all, then what is being proposed in its place, and what does *that* have to do with the point of the post?

I mean, other than "reading and documenting" cases (big woop), are you all actually doing anything real that doesn't involve the internet, in the context of the faith-based organizations of which you are members?

Are you for example, giving homes to these kids you're talking about? And have you convinced the members of your communities of faith to do the same, ie. you know, the *point* of the post? If so, that's great! How did you do it? What programs have you set up to get your church/synagog/etc. members to take in foster kids, get put on adoption lists, etc.? What has been your participation rate?

Or is all of this just the result of doing a google-search on some keyword in the post and too much spare time and an overwhelming need to argue with a complete stranger on the interwebs? ;)

Brett said...

it has quite a bit about the original post. basically attacking someone for their thoughts on the CPS system. How ever not backed by fact the attacks was not backed up by facts either.

"who is just a bit irrational in more ways than one. He was complaining viciously about CPS (Child Protective Services) saying that they are kidnappers and that they "arrest the victim" when they intervene (ie, removing the child from danger = "arrest")"

Neither side presented EVIDENCE and both based their opinions. Now offering bases of facts for one side. Now anyone willing to worry about the future for the children in this country can look up facts and find themselves the truth. whether it be for against any subject I think the people of this country and others need to do so purely for the reason of "are the children not worth the effort to know the truth?"

If by chance you heard of a vaccination that contained harmful chemicals was being force onto you or your children would you not be looking into it to know the facts?

Geoffrey Kruse-Safford said...

In IL, it's called the Department of Child and Family Services (DCFS), and they are thorough, professional, and quite often very personal and caring. No agency is perfect, whether public or private, yet considering the sheer volume of cases DCFS deals with on any given day, that there aren't more problems is a testimony to a pretty efficient organization.

I think Alan has a point, though. The issue of this post is the distance churches have to travel until they reach some kind of serious equilibrium on helping the homeless. Whether or not this or that state agency fails in its legal obligations is neither here nor there, because the question is how churches can do better.

On the other hand, it is a good example of the way comment threads on blogs can be infuriating.

Alan said...

First, I don't think you actually understand this post at all.

Second, you write,

"If by chance you heard of a vaccination that contained harmful chemicals was being force onto you or your children would you not be looking into it to know the facts?"

So the answer to my questions about what you were actually doing other than picking a fight with a stranger on the internet is what? Not much, I take it.

If by chance I had heard of a vaccination that contained harmful chemicals that was being forced onto me or my children, I would not be posting lame comments on some random blog. I'd actually be doing something more important than just typing words on the internets. If CPS is as awful as you say, I'd think you'd have better things to do with your time. But complaining and typing is probably easier than doing something.

Brett said...

yeah I guess you know what I do every moment of every day. I cant be doing this between trying to get other things done. and I couldn't possibly be trying to help educate the public with what is going on.

awareness is just as important as the actual actions that is taken. the more people that are understanding of a situation the more that can be done.

I shall leave this blog site and let you think what you will as you have already made up your mind. I only hope that you don't learn the truth the way many of us have.

Dan Trabue said...

Geoffrey said...

On the other hand, it is a good example of the way comment threads on blogs can be infuriating.

I suspect that the new commenters here are perhaps people who feel they have been burned by the very system mentioned in the post and so I am fine with being patient with them. They may indeed have a valid case for themselves and for way too many times when the system doesn't work. And that's a shame.

Sometimes, when it's happened to you, it's probably easier to think that it's a system-wide problem and who could blame you?

Dan Trabue said...

Having said that, I see no evidence that it is a system-wide problem. How could it be? CPS is, what, hundreds? of separate, distinct systems with thousands of employees and thousands more contractors with no connection to one another.

What are the odds are that each system would on their own go corrupt or - even more far-fetched - that they would band together to form some sort of vast conspiracy (including the Media??) to be corrupt?

The truth is, it's a difficult, gut-wrenching job in often the best of circumstances walking a razor's edge between helping the family and protecting the child. Unfortunately, sometimes it does not work, but having nothing in its place would do even less to ensure the safety of children.

And, as you and Alan note, this wasn't so much about CPS as it was about those who complain about getting rid of systems when they have no reasonable systems to replace it or that they aren't stepping up right now.

The thing is, IF some group REALLY wanted to see CPS gone, all ("all") they have to do is form private family support agencies to rid our nation as much child abuse as humanly possible and provide some mechanism of intervention when they fail.

Get rid of child abuse and families in need of support and you've put CPS out of business.