God made it clear that God sided with the poor and oppressed and marginalized throughout the Bible, if the authors of the Bible can be trusted. A small sampling...
Deuteronomy:
But the Egyptians mistreated us and made us suffer, subjecting us to harsh labor.
Then we cried out to the Lord, the God of our ancestors, and
the Lord heard our voice and saw our misery, toil and oppression.
Judges:
I rescued you from the hand of the Egyptians. And I delivered you
from the hand of all your oppressors;
I drove them out before you and gave you their land.
2 Samuel:
And I will provide a place for my people Israel and will plant them so that
they can have a home of their own and no longer be disturbed.
Wicked people will not oppress them anymore...
1 Chronicles:
[God speaking] they [Israel] wandered from nation to nation,
from one kingdom to another.
God allowed no one to oppress them;
for their sake he rebuked kings:
“Do not touch my anointed ones;
do my prophets no harm.”
Nehemiah:
when they were oppressed they cried out to you.
From heaven you heard them, and
in your great compassion you gave them deliverers,
who rescued them from the hand of their enemies.
Job:
For he has oppressed the poor and left them destitute;
he has seized houses he did not build.
“Surely he will have no respite from his craving;
he cannot save himself by his treasure.
Psalms:
The Lord is a refuge for the oppressed, a stronghold in times of trouble.
Psalms:
You, Lord, hear the desire of the afflicted;
you encourage them, and you listen to their cry,
defending the fatherless and the oppressed,
so that mere earthly mortals
will never again strike terror.
More Psalms:
May God defend the afflicted among the people and save the children of the needy;
may God crush the oppressor.
More Psalms, this time apparently speaking directly to the GOP leaders in KY, TN, TX, etc...
From their callous hearts comes iniquity;
their evil imaginations have no limits.
They scoff, and speak with malice;
with arrogance they threaten oppression.
Their mouths lay claim to heaven,
and their tongues take possession of the earth.
I could go on and on in Psalms and really, every book, but continuing...
Proverbs:
Whoever oppresses the poor shows contempt for their Maker,
but whoever is kind to the needy honors God.
Ecclesiastes:
I saw the tears of the oppressed—
and they have no comforter;
power was on the side of their oppressors—
and they have no comforter.
Isaiah:
Therefore this is what the Holy One of Israel says:
“Because you have rejected this message,
relied on oppression
and depended on deceit,
this sin will become for you
like a high wall, cracked and bulging,
that collapses suddenly, in an instant.
Isaiah:
“Is not this the kind of fasting I have chosen:
to loose the chains of injustice and untie the cords of the yoke,
to set the oppressed free and break every yoke?"
Isaiah, later quoted by Jesus as to what his ministry was about:
The Spirit of the Sovereign LORD is on me,
because the LORD has anointed
me to proclaim good news to the poor.
He has sent me to bind up the
brokenhearted,
to proclaim freedom for the captives and release from
darkness for the prisoners,
to proclaim the year of the LORD’s favor and the day of vengeance of our God,
to comfort all who mourn...
Jeremiah:
If you really change your ways and your actions and deal with each other justly,
if you do not oppress the foreigner,
the fatherless or the widow and
do not shed innocent blood in this place,
and if you do not follow other gods to your own harm,
then I will let you live in this place...
Ezekiel, explaining what the "sin of Sodom" actually was:
Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom:
She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned;
they did not help the poor and needy.
Amos:
They trample on the heads of the poor as on the dust of the ground and
deny justice to the oppressed.
Zephaniah:
Woe to the city of oppressors,
rebellious and defiled!
She does not trust in the Lord,
she does not draw near to her God.
Her officials within her
are roaring lions;
her rulers are evening wolves,
who leave nothing for the morning.
Her prophets are unprincipled;
they are treacherous people.
Her priests profane the sanctuary
and do violence to the law.
Malachi:
So I will come to put you on trial.
I will be quick to testify against
sorcerers, adulterers and perjurers,
against those who defraud laborers
of their wages,
who oppress the widows and the fatherless, and
deprive the foreigners among you of justice,
but do not fear me.
And that's just a tiny sampling from the Old Testament. Let those who have ears, hear.
23 comments:
Marshal dribbled nonsense claims and asked the questions...
So where is your support for your claims? Your stupidly, wildly false and irrational, hateful claims against those on my side of the issue or in support of those one yours?
It's an observable, demonstrable fact that LGBTQ people have been oppressed throughout history, and including all of US history.
Do you deny that reality? I mean, it IS a reality, whether you recognize it or not. I'm just wondering: Do you recognize that reality?
The reality is that LGBTQ people have been kicked out of churches, kicked out of their families, abused, denigrated by their families and schools and churches and neighbors throughout our history.
Do you recognize the reality?
Do you realize that calling them liars IS another act of oppression?
Do you recognize calling them immoral and ungodly, simply because they dare to disagree with your personal bigotries IS another act of oppression?
Do you recognize that they will tell you, as will experts in the fields of gender and human sexuality and mental health and medial health, that the type of attacks you engage in is having harmful effects on their mental health and well-being?
These are all observable realities. Do you or do you not recognize them?
Marshal continued...
A rhetorical question of course, given you have no support...no evidence...nothing but talk from those who are openly sinful and "experts" who can't provide truth you can use against me.
You have zero support - nothing, nada, not a damned thing - to support that they are "openly sinful." Here's the fact, Marshal: Daring to disagree with YOUR RELIGIOUS bigotry or the bigotry of other extremists like Muslim extremists and others does NOT mean and is NOT evidence that they are "openly sinful." Morality is not dependent upon agreeing with your bigotry.
That's the fact, observable and demonstrable. Do you recognize reality, Marshal?
WHY would you be the one who gets to decide what is and isn't moral?
Get over yourself. I don't know how that big head of yours ever manages to get pulled out of your ass, but that's where it lives.
Damn, the arrogance is just nauseating.
I bring up the biblical record of God being opposed to oppression to just demonstrate that, in the Bible, there is a long and solid record of opposition to oppression of the poor, the marginalized, the foreigner. That's clearly in the Bible's testimony of God's nature.
Do you agree with that reality?
In our nation, LGBTQ people have a history of being oppressed for merely being who they are.
Do you recognize that reality?
Why do you think, then, that God is not opposed to the oppression of LGBTQ folk? Do you think God is opposed to all sorts of oppression... EXCEPT for oppressing LGBTQ people? Why? Because you fear and hate them?
Why would your bigotry and hatred make God do something against God's nature?
I had asked...
"WHY would you be the one who gets to decide what is and isn't moral?"
Marshal responded...
I don't. God does. You reject Him completely.
Which is not an answer to the question. It kicks the can down the road.
Why are YOU the one who gets to say what God is and isn't declaring immoral?
The rational answer is that YOU don't, not for anyone else. You can decide for yourself what is and isn't moral, but when you decide that it's moral to make stupidly false claims ("you reject Him completely...") and other attacks against good, decent people who dare to disagree with YOUR abusive hunches, you can expect that good, decent people will take a stand against your oppression.
Just as God makes clear in the bible that God is opposed to oppression.
Regarding your whole line of stupidly false claims and erroneous, shallow-thinking conclusions ("You/they reject God because you disagree with my opinions about what I think God thinks..."), I wonder if you can even see beyond your own large skull to see that I and folks like me spend a LOT of time and effort doing what we do precisely because we seek God and God's good ways.
My work, for most of my paid and non-paid life, has been to work for justice, for aiding the poor and the least of these, as is clearly taught in the Bible. Now, as always, I COULD BE mistaken in my search to follow God as evidenced in Jesus' teachings, but it is just stupidly inane to say that I and people like me are REJECTING God when what we're doing is only rejecting your personal human opinions about God.
You might could reasonably say, "Dan, people like you may THINK you're trying to do what God wants/follow the teachings of Jesus/working for justice... but you're doing so in a wrong way... you're failing to understand God aright (you know, like I think what God thinks...)" but you just can't rationally say that we're rejecting God as a deliberate choice when the reality shows that this is just an abundantly false and irrational claim, given the data.
Marshal continues his grade school (with apologies to grade school students) attacks and false claims and unsupported lies (unsupported because, of course, they're lies and he can't support them).
As always, I don't delete anyone just to delete them. But if you're not going to talk on topic, if you're not going to support outrageous claims, if you're not going to be respectful, if you're going to engage in hateful, bigoted behavior that adds to oppression and harm rather than kindness and decency, I WILL delete those nonsense, harmful comments.
Want to comment here? You don't have to agree with me, but you should be respectful. Support claims. Don't make false accusations. Don't oppress others.
It's just an expectation of a basic adult (or, again, even grade school) level of respectful, decent conversation.
"Marshal continues his grade school (with apologies to grade school students) attacks and false claims and unsupported lies (unsupported because, of course, they're lies and he can't support them)."
This is an intentional lie on your part. I "attack" by speaking truth, truth claims and claims I've supported many times...and easily, too.
"As always, I don't delete anyone just to delete them."
This is one true thing among your constant lying. You delete because the truth told to you is inconvenient and beyond your dishonest ability to counter it factually. Thus you delete and lie about what you deleted.
"...if you're not going to be respectful, if you're going to engage in hateful, bigoted behavior..."
"How it portrays your puny little god as a worthless, bullshit godling who doesn't really give a damn about justice or love?"
"But I DO consider ANYONE who says they have a puny loveless godling wimp-shit that doesn't care about justice for all and who doesn't care about the oppressed, well, THAT godling isn't worth the effort to use it as toilet paper. THAT would be a useful, pathetic, hateful god-vomit."
"Or is your god some worthless ass-wipe?"
"Well frankly, anyone who worships a hateful ass-wipe god that is useless, that would be of little interest to me."
The above quotations, taken from the comments section of a post at Craig's blog, are truly disrespectful and hate-filled responses about someone with a more accurate understanding of God's Will than you, yet aren't actually representative of anything Craig said in his post or subsequent comments. The point here is that you reserve the right to be an asshole without the least legitimate justification, while accusing me of assholery while arguing against your perversions and defense of perversion. To say it's a double-standard, while absolutely true, doesn't go far enough to describe your vile nature and behavior. And what follows are common accusations without basis of any kind, nor evidence in support of them:
"Support claims. Don't make false accusations. Don't oppress others."
My claims have been supported scores of times in past posts if not with each expression of them. But you like to pretend each comment or post is the absolute first with no history of engagement between us having ever taken place. Either that, or more likely, you're intentionally lying about my claims not being or never having been supported.
I also don't make false accusations. I don't make ANY accusations which aren't either blatantly, obviously true or as with my claims, haven't been supported multiple times in multiple ways in the past...often the quite recent past...but you just pretend that's never happened. Worse, you reject evidence backing up my truth claims and fact-based accusations, or you've been reduced to deleting, cancelling and otherwise hiding the truths and facts I've presented because you know full well just how unassailable they are, yet you don't intend to repent of your perversions.
And I certainly don't oppress anyone, never have and again, you've been woefully but consistently unable to prove I ever have. Speaking the truth is only oppressive to those for whom truth is anathema and inconvenient. If that's what you meant, then I'm proud to cop to that. But I doubt it. You want to demonize better people who refuse to accept your lies and heresies.
"It's just an expectation of a basic adult (or, again, even grade school) level of respectful, decent conversation."
Another lie, more hypocrisy and your routine unjustified condescension and arrogance. You're a fake Christian, Dan. I stand by that truthful, fact-based accusation, while you do nothing to support your claim to the contrary beyond "Nyuh uh".
Delete away, liar. Or find a pair and prove your claims against me.
I'll leave these comments up just to walk you through them, line by line, to show you what you need to change if you want to comment here.
This is an intentional lie on your part. I "attack" by speaking truth, truth claims and claims I've supported many times...and easily, too.
This is an empty claim on your part, not supported by reality. YOU MAY THINK that your hateful demonization of LGBTQ people is "speaking truth," but you've done nothing to support it beyond "I REALLLLLY think the Bible means this..." but that's a subjective and rather vapid opinion. You want to "prove" something? Provide data. But forget about it on LGBTQ matters because you've already tried and always come up with bigoted opinions, not factual data. You WON'T post unsupported opinions on this blog unless, at the very least, you make clear that it is YOUR unsupported opinion.
Don't try. I'm letting THESE unsupported opinions stand just to show you why your comments often get deleted. It's in part, because of your unsupported claims.
You delete because the truth told to you is inconvenient and beyond your dishonest ability to counter it factually.
Another entirely unsupported claim. And, as it turns out, false, and stupidly false at that.
You then take issue with my insistence that you be respectful. You cite my comments at Craig's post to say, "But YOU'RE being disrespectful!" But am I?
My quotes you cite...
"How it portrays your puny little god as a worthless, bullshit godling who doesn't really give a damn about justice or love?"
"But I DO consider ANYONE who says they have a puny loveless godling wimp-shit that doesn't care about justice for all and who doesn't care about the oppressed, well, THAT godling isn't worth the effort to use it as toilet paper. THAT would be a useful, pathetic, hateful god-vomit."
"Or is your god some worthless ass-wipe?"
What kind of "god" am I referring to there, though? One who says they love everyone and support justice for everyone... BUT who really only favors that god's favorite people. That is NOT a God of justice. Part of being Just is being impartial. Craig appeared to be describing a hyper-partial godling who doesn't really care about all of humanity, thus, that god is not loving and not just. An almighty "god" who is not loving or just is, I think, reasonably called a worthless ass-wipe.
Do YOU disagree?
Do you think that a god that doesn't care about justice for all is NOT worthless and banal?
Now, those were all in the context of asking Craig QUESTIONS because, as we all know, Craig tends to give vague, non- and half-answers. MAYBE it's the case that Craig doesn't believe his idea of God is not concerned about justice and decency for all. If so, then he could answer these questions clearly and the "ass-wipe god" would NOT be the one he's advocating.
But I think all reasonable people can agree that a god that doesn't care about justice for all or loving all IS pretty worthless.
Marshal...
while accusing me of assholery while arguing against your perversions and defense of perversion.
Another stupidly false and unsupported claim. Just because YOU happen to disagree with my opinions on morality and work for justice and love for all people doesn't mean that you've proven any "perversions." And you can't. It's a stupidly false claim.
My claims have been supported scores of times in past posts if not with each expression of them.
Another unsupported claim.
I also don't make false accusations.
A false claim. You regularly make demonstrably false claims.
I certainly don't oppress anyone, never have
Another false claim. When you call LGBTQ people names (the names you've called them that I'm not going to post here), these are people YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW, you don't know that they're making things up or are the other names you use to try to intimidate and oppress. The facts are that these folks ARE speaking truth and you are the one lying about that and about them. When you make those lies and accusations - and to a group that has been historically oppressed as a point of reality - you are adding to the oppression. They will tell you so. The mental health and medical health experts will tell you so. Now, I GET that you think you know better than all those experts and the people themselves and their allies and friends, but bullshit. That's a dumbass, empty-head, diarrheic false claim. AND it is oppressive.
That you don't understand it or acknowledge it doesn't make it so.
You won't post oppressive words and false attacks about people you don't know here. Don't try.
And on it goes. Unsupported claims won't remain. Attacks on people won't remain. Demonization of an oppressed group won't remain.
You are not the beginning and ending of morality, Marshal. Your hunches about God are not the sole authority for God. Humble yourself, little man. For God's and goodness' sake, just humble yourself or shut up and get out of the way of people working to make things better.
Here's an example of direct, clear questions that you CAN answer here, Marshal, if you do so in a factual manner without being disrespectful or abusive or oppressive. Let's just take the notion of gay folks marrying who they want:
1. It is the reality that you can't prove objectively, authoritatively that:
a. There IS an almighty perfectly loving, perfectly just God AND
b. That this God is opposed to gay folk marrying.
The reality is, you have NO way of proving as an objective fact that this is the case. Do you recognize that reality?
Speak with humility, son.
2. The flip side, then: IF you hold an opinion that, in YOUR opinion, you think that God is opposed to gay folk marrying, then it is YOUR opinion, shared by many others throughout history (including extremist muslims and other extremists), but it is ONLY your collective unproven opinions.
Do you acknowledge that reality?
Just that much, if you want to comment here.
But be careful: Remember that I will not allow you to post abusive, attacking language. These are rather simple, clear questions that you should be able to answer easily with a Yes or No.
Marshal, all your many words with no answers that were lacking in respect and rational adult conversation have been deleted. I have saved them all and will go through at least some of them to once again, point out how OBJECTIVELY, your "facts" are not facts and your claims are unsupported and, in some cases, just stupidly false. Objectively, regardless of opinion or religion tradition.
I'm going to start with the obvious:
I asked you two simple clear questions with easy answers.
1. It is the reality that you can't prove objectively, authoritatively that:
a. There IS an almighty perfectly loving, perfectly just God AND
b. That this God is opposed to gay folk marrying.
The reality is, you have NO way of proving as an objective fact that this is the case. Do you recognize that reality?
2. The flip side, then: IF you hold an opinion that, in YOUR opinion, you think that God is opposed to gay folk marrying, then it is YOUR opinion, shared by many others throughout history (including extremist muslims and other extremists), but it is ONLY your collective unproven opinions.
Do you acknowledge that reality?
Your response (not answers) was:
We've gone over this hundreds of times and the "reality" is that you demand nothing short of some verse where God says, "I'm opposed to homosexuals marrying each other."
Indeed, we have gone over this hundreds of times. And I've ALWAYS been 100% abundantly clear that I do NOT demand some verse where God says those literal words. I'm asking if you can acknowledge that you can't prove this as an objective fact.
ANSWER THAT QUESTION.
You can't continue to say you've answered your questions and complain about me deleting your unsupported responses if you don't answer the questions that were put to you.
Also, we can see here one objectively demonstrable place where you make one of your stupidly false claims. I've always been clear that I'm not looking for an exact phrase. I'm looking for objective support. Hell, IF there were that exact phrase OR thought in the pages of the Bible, it still wouldn't be objective proof. You understand?
You continue...
" It doesn't work that way
Yes. Yes, it does. If you say you have objective proof of something, then providing the objective proof - data that people have to admit as fact no matter their opinions on the facts - IS how it works, precisely how it works.
Do you understand that reality?
That's not how it works, and you've never presented a damned thing which is more unassailable than the following:
• 100% of the verses addressing homosexual behavior denounce it as sin in the strongest possible terms.
• 100% of the verses referencing God’s ideal for marriage involve one man and one woman.
• 100% of the verses referencing parenting involve moms and dads with unique roles (or at least a set of male and female parents guiding the children).
• 0% of 31,173 Bible verses refer to homosexual behavior in a positive or even benign way or even hint at the acceptability of homosexual unions.
This is not objective proof. 100% of the verses that deal with slavery do not say it's wrong. That is not objective proof that slavery is moral. Don't be obtuse.
100% of the verses about polygamy or selling your daughter into sex slavery/forced marriages do not say it's wrong. THAT is not objective proof that either of those things are morally good.
DO you recognize those realities?
You offering verses and then, YOUR subjective opinion and interpretation of those verses does not prove anything objectively other than, "It truly is factually what I, Marshal, think."
DO you recognize that reality?
Now, IF you can admit the reality that you can't objectively prove that God is opposed to gay folks marrying, but you REALLY think that's the case "and here's why..." that would at least be rational, as a starting point. That is, admitting you can't prove it, but you think your subjective opinion is the best, most moral, most rational opinion to take on the point.
We can deal with subjective opinions ONCE we acknowledge them for what they are.
But first you must need recognize reality. Understand?
Marshal...
So rather than repeatedly whining...falsely...that my claims are unsupported simply because I don't provide the same reams of evidence provided multiple times in the past
Not whining in the least - that would be a false claim or false/mistaken impression on your part. Now here's something to note:
IF you acknowledge that this is not something either of us can prove objectively, then perhaps you'll understand what I'm talking about is that you have, as a matter of objective fact in the real world, provided ANY data that PROVES the claim, since you can't. That's not saying that you haven't sent your preferred doctors or bible verses that make you hold the opinion that you hold - that's not what I'm saying. Of course, you've sent me many verses and a few doctors/experts' opinions. Just as I have provided you my biblical and rational reasons for holding my positions.
Which points to another false claim of yours: I HAVE provided endless explanations for why I believe what I believe and why I think it's more rational and Godly than your opinions. So, to say I've never done this would be false.
Understand?
I had said...
"You want to "prove" something? Provide data."
And Marshal responded...
I've done it countless times on a variety of issues debated between us, and none more so than on sexual issues.
And...
• 100% of the verses addressing homosexual behavior denounce it as sin in the strongest possible terms.
• 100% of the verses referencing God’s ideal for marriage involve one man and one woman.
• 100% of the verses referencing parenting involve moms and dads with unique roles (or at least a set of male and female parents guiding the children).
• 0% of 31,173 Bible verses refer to homosexual behavior in a positive or even benign way or even hint at the acceptability of homosexual unions.
What this information "proves" is that there are a handful of verses in an ancient sacred (to some) text that indicates - at the very most - that back then, people considered at least SOME homosexual behavior wrong in at least some contexts.
That is, saying "men shall not lay with men, if they do, kill them..." indicates that the people of the time thought SOME cases of "men laying with men" - with ZERO indication what that specifically means - was a crime that was punishable by death.
But it does not prove that gay folk marrying one another is something that God disapproves of or that is morally wrong. It simply factually definitively does NOT objectively prove this.
For one thing, ancient texts are not universally recognized as an authoritative source for moral rules for today. Indeed, this SAME ancient collection of ancient texts also endorses slavery and killing "men laying with men..." ideas which you presumably reject as wrong.
DO you reject out of hand the notion of slavery of human beings as a moral option?
Do you reject out of hand the idea of capital punishment for "men laying with men" as a moral option?
If you can't condemn capital punishment for gay people or slavery - two clearly evil notions - on what basis do you think anyone should give much credence to your opinions on morality?
There's so much that Marshal says that are ridiculous false claims and nonsense, it's hard to tackle it in an orderly manner. But just as a quick aside, he said...
this lame-assed lie of comparing me or conservative Christians in any way to muslims. Stop this crap. It's a rank lie
What I said was that EXTREMIST Muslims (specifically not "Muslims," in general, but the extreme, most conservative, most outrageous Muslims) believe that homosexuality and LGBTQ issues are "sinful" and an affront to Allah. This is also what conservative Christians believe. Extremist muslims believe it so thoroughly that they believe it's okay to punish and criminalize homosexuality. SOME conservative Christians lean in this direction, as well. They certainly have historically. To the degree that modern christian conservatives DON'T want to criminalize homosexuality it's primarily because they know it's a lost fight. To some degree, I think they recognize how evil it is to try to criminalize homosexuality, but at the same time, they want to demonize and outlaw as much of it as possible.
Until recently, they wanted to criminalize gay marriage. They just realize it's a losing argument and have abandoned that but if they thought they could bring it back, I suspect they would.
But, aside from the last part (which is my educated guess) WHERE IS THE LIE?
Is this NOT just the reality of it all?
Done.
Marshal, in a now deleted comment because of vile sexist language, said...
Stop deleting me, coward.
You can see that some of your posts remain. You want to comment here, you CAN. That is entirely within your power. You just have to follow the rules.
1. No sexist, racist, homophobic or vulgar attacks or comments.
2. Don't make unsupported claims. Just don't. If you WANT to offer an opinion of yours that you can't prove, then state it clearly as "This is just my unproven opinion and NOT a fact in any way that I know or can prove..."
3. Don't post stupidly false claims. (see #2 - just because you might think in your head that what you're saying is a true claim, if you can't prove it, don't post it.)
Right now, you have questions to directly, clearly and factually answer before making any further comments.
DO you reject out of hand the notion of slavery of human beings as a moral option?
Do you reject out of hand the idea of capital punishment for "men laying with men" as a moral option?
If you can't condemn capital punishment for gay people or slavery - two clearly evil notions - on what basis do you think anyone should give much credence to your opinions on morality?
100% of the verses about polygamy or selling your daughter into sex slavery/forced marriages do not say it's wrong. THAT is not objective proof that either of those things are morally good.
DO you recognize those realities?
You offering verses and then, YOUR subjective opinion and interpretation of those verses does not prove anything objectively other than, "It truly is factually what I, Marshal, think."
DO you recognize that reality?
For starters.
Marshal, you won't promote perversions (like killing people who dare to disagree with your hubris and arrogance) here. And IF you want to comment, you WILL answer questions directly.
The one question you answered directly was a sick and depraved and violent answer that I can't repeat because of how oppressive and dangerous it is. You're not well, man. Get help.
Do you want to answer about slavery? Can you agree it's always a great evil?
You didn't answer it, just suggested I had no reason to ask the question. I ask the question for the legitimate reason that I honestly don't know your answer to the question.
Feel free to answer it. And note: Just because I ask it doesn't mean I'm saying you have said that slavery is sometimes acceptable. I'm asking your position because I DO NOT KNOW THE ANSWER. Given that God sometimes (in the biblical narratives) commands people to enslave others for labor or forced marriage and given that you're given to take such stories as literal facts, I suspect you don't always condemn it, but I'm giving you a chance to make that clear, one way or the other.
Given that my question appears to puzzle you...
"100% of the verses about polygamy or selling your daughter into sex slavery/forced marriages do not say it's wrong. THAT is not objective proof that either of those things are morally good."
...let me rephrase it:
Do you know of ANY verses that condemn polygamy in the Bible, even ONE?
Did you know that there are polygamists amongst the biblical heroes?
Do you think that those polygamists were WRONG for engaging in polygamy?
When God says God gave David his many wives, was God wrong to give David many wives?
Or do you think that polygamy doesn't exist in a positive manner in the biblical stories?
Marshal (in a now-deleted comment because he continues to answer questions directly)...
But what's most egregious is your demand that anyone acknowledge and agree with what YOU demand must be recognized as "reality".
Reality is what reality is. I had said
"100% of the verses about polygamy or selling your daughter into sex slavery/forced marriages do not say it's wrong. THAT is not objective proof that either of those things are morally good.
DO you recognize those realities?"
And that IS reality. There are no verses overtly condemning polygamy or slavery, specifically. It's not in the Bible as a point of objective reality. IF there were such verses, you could provide them. You don't even try to do so. Instead, you dodge and refuse to answer the question that's been asked of you. Who am I to demand that you recognize reality? Someone who recognizes reality at least on this point. Not sure what's hard to understand about that.
Marshal continued dodging the questions and said, instead...
Once again you arrogantly insist you can dictate what stands as "reality" without the least bit of proof. Your saying so doesn't make it so, and likely never possibly can or ever will if your history is any proof.
Look, little buddy, IF it is the reality that there are verses in the bible that specifically, clearly condemn polygamy, ALL you have to do is provide it. Failing that, you can admit that I'm correct about the reality of it all. Not sure what's hard for you to understand on that point or what's arrogant about recognizing reality.
I had asked...
"DO you reject out of hand the notion of slavery of human beings as a moral option?"
Marshal responded, BUT DIDN'T answer directly...
I've never supported slavery. Do I need to question your position on bestiality, or do I have some legit reason for asking such a thing?
So, not a direct answer, but a half-answer. You claim you've never supported slavery. So, IN THE BIBLE, where there is a text where it appears God is commanding Israel to enslave people, you are willing to condemn THAT slavery because you recognize that slavery is always wrong.
Is that correct?
You can't say "I've never supported slavery" while at the same time, hedging your bets on biblical slavery. Take a stand. IS slavery always a great evil and wrong? A sin? Now, 150 years ago, 4000 years ago?
I had asked...
"Do you reject out of hand the idea of capital punishment for "men laying with men" as a moral option?"
You responded, BUT DID NOT ANSWER, by saying...
I've never called for it. I believe there's no need to go that far. But as God said it's an abomination deserving death...a death which is on the heads of those who engage in it...I wouldn't lose sleep if it was instituted, EVEN THOUGH I WOULD NOT SUPPORT IT PERSONALLY.
That answer suggests to me that you do NOT think killing men for "laying with men" as a great evil. If you don't lose sleep over it, then you appear to be clearly saying it's not a great evil.
Either that, or you don't give a shit about evil.
By all means, make yourself clear. Answer the question that was asked of you.
"None of the Pharisees could answer Jesus’ question, and after that day no one was brave enough to ask him any more questions."
Matthew 22:46
We see.
Actual, but no doubt clearly unintentional honesty from Dan:
"Marshal (in a now-deleted comment because he continues to answer questions directly)."
Answering questions directly is EXACTLY what results in deletion here in the cesspool. Kudos to you, Dan, despite the fact you never meant to speak the truth.
"Reality is what reality is."
Here in this cesspool, "reality" is what you perceive it to be in your tiny, intelligence starved mind or what your dishonest nature wishes it is. Actual reality is anathema to you.
"100% of the verses about polygamy or selling your daughter into sex slavery/forced marriages do not say it's wrong. THAT is not objective proof that either of those things are morally good.
DO you recognize those realities?"
I'm not dodging anything by dismissing this type of question for the intentional obfuscation it is. The list of points I presented are all based on the actual teaching of Scripture on the subject of homosexuality. It was presented in response to your argument in favor of it. I don't recall you bringing up polygamy or your corruption regarding selling one's daughter, nor did I, and thus to make a statement about what Scripture doesn't say...or say clearly enough for you...is irrelevant to that which Scripture does so clearly say in regard to the sinfulness and prohibition of homosexual behaviors.
Do you recognize that reality?
"Look, little buddy, IF it is the reality that there are verses in the bible that specifically, clearly condemn polygamy, ALL you have to do is provide it."
Ah...condescension from someone morally inferior. That's cute, but I'm not nor could I ever be your "buddy" of any size. You're too dishonest and in favor of too many heinous behaviors for that to ever happen. I don't need to provide any verses for or against an issue YOU demand I do as if it has any relevance to the topic at hand. And to make this demand rather than being, for once, honest in recognizing the truths of the four points I presented is just your dishonest way of avoiding that reality. Because to do so would then force you to recognize there is no way to cite Scripture to legitimize your support for that behavior. What's more, there's no way for you to pretend my opposition is rank bigotry when it's clearly a reflection of what is clearly God's Will on the subject. But after so many years of defending the premise, you haven't the courage to muster the magnanimity and grace to concede you never should have. C'mon, Dan...embrace grace!!
As to your insistence on the two offerings, you've demonstrated a clear lack of understanding or honesty on those points as well. So for you to insist you've stated what is "reality" is just another comedic attempt to pretend you've actually "seriously and prayerfully" studied Scripture. I pass.
"Marshal (in a now-deleted comment because he continues to answer questions directly)"
That could be the most honest thing you've ever said.
"Reality is what reality is."
That's true, too, so far as it goes. But you desperately need to believe falsehoods and corruptions are reality and your perception of reality is remarkably and routinely proven to be skewed. It manifests most every time (I'm being gracious here, as it's far more than "most") you ask if I recognize a "reality" you present.
""100% of the verses about polygamy or selling your daughter into sex slavery/forced marriages do not say it's wrong. THAT is not objective proof that either of those things are morally good."
But we're not discussing either of those two things, neither of which you've ever shown an accurate understanding. More importantly, even if true, it hasn't nothing to do with, nor does anything to mitigate the four facts I presented, all of which are bolstered by an honest reading of Scripture. The represent that which is in no way ambiguous, despite your desperate and deceitful need to pretend otherwise. Thus, to speak of two unrelated and irrelevant points, and pretend the lack of specificity regarding it's moral status in a clearly dishonest attempt to avoid your concession of truth you dislike has any bearing on the four truths I listed is a dodge...and not a very clever one.
"Look, little buddy, IF it is the reality that there are verses in the bible that specifically, clearly condemn polygamy, ALL you have to do is provide it."
First, I'm not your "buddy", regardless of size and never would or could be. Your dishonesty and defense of gravely immoral behaviors prohibits any consideration of such.
Second, I'm not obliged in any way to consider seeking verses for a position not under discussion just because you want to avoid that which is. But I'll be happy to engage in a discussion on the clear immorality of polygamy in another thread.
Third, to concede what YOU insist is reality requires a specific discussion of that perception. What you regard as "reality" in reference to the morality of those two issues is not as clear cut as you need to believe. Again...some other time.
"So, not a direct answer, but a half-answer."
No. It's a direct answer to another question posed to deflect and obfuscate. What does it have to do with anything regarding your defense of homosexuality? Answer: nothing at all. So why bring it up?
It also addresses you fake uncertainty of my position on the subject. On what basis could you possibly have any? Answer: on the basis that you need to deflect from truths about homosexuality you find inconvenient and unassailable, and on the basis you've chosen to presume based on past conversations where you failed to support your position on the subject.
"So, IN THE BIBLE, where there is a text where it appears God is commanding Israel to enslave people, you are willing to condemn THAT slavery because you recognize that slavery is always wrong."
So now you expect me to condemn what you believe appears to be what isn't necessarily so and likely isn't. Got it. Ain't happening.
"You can't say "I've never supported slavery" while at the same time, hedging your bets on biblical slavery. "
But I've never supported slavery, so I have no prohibition against repeating that truth where I feel compelled to do so. In the meantime, you have a distinct problem understanding Scripture/rejecting Scripture, so the fact I've never supported slavery isn't compromised in the least by what you insist I must or mustn't do with Scripture you're perverting for your own purposes.
"You responded, BUT DID NOT ANSWER"
This is yet another intentional lie. Since I've never expressed any support for CP for homosexuals, stating I see no need to go that far and have stated many times over the years that I believe CP in our society is only warranted for those who have murdered, the question is yet another absurd implication and distraction from your unwillingness to concede the truth regarding the sinfulness of homosexuality. But I don't reject the notion on any other moral point but that our society doesn't and shouldn't put anyone to death for any crimes but murder. It's more a punishment which doesn't fit the crime kinda thing. In the meantime, I would not find it immoral per se given God regards this crime as worthy of death, which would be on the heads of the perpetrators. Again, I base right/wrong on the clearly revealed Will of God. All this is no more or less direct than my original answer, but far, far more direct than any answer to any question posed to you that I can recall.
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