I saw a bumper sticker the other day that I liked. It said, Give me ambiguity or give me, you know, something else...
On the other extreme of certainty, we have Glenn Beck in the news, telling people to leave their progressive, Catholic, Anabaptist churches because they are communists or fascists or whatever it is he's saying. Beck's own words...
I'm begging you, your right to religion and freedom to exercise religion and read all of the passages of the Bible as you want to read them and as your church wants to preach them . . . are going to come under the ropes in the next year.
If it lasts that long it will be the next year. I beg you, look for the words 'social justice' or 'economic justice' on your church Web site. If you find it, run as fast as you can. Social justice and economic justice, they are code words.
Now... am I advising people to leave their church? Yes.
Now, first off, I rarely post comments from the lunatic fringe or from the court jesters of the Right (Beck, Limbaugh, Savage, etc). For the most part, I think they just say crazy stuff to get more listeners and, thus, it's best to just ignore them. But, since this is a recent theme around these parts, I thought I'd post his comments.
And I wonder how long before he'll back off his nutty call. After all, he's not only attacking the smaller Anabaptist and progressive types, he's striking at the heart of what many moderates and especially the Catholic Church feel are critical Christian teachings (ie, "Christian teachings" = actual teachings of the Christ, Jesus).
Jim Wallis has called for a boycott on Beck's show. If he turns off all the moderate, Catholic, Anabaptist and Progressive Christians out there, can his show take that kind of a hit? (Of course, the progressive and Anabaptist types probably aren't watching/listening to him anyway, but still...)
Wallis has also offered to go on Beck's show (or any place Beck is willing to meet) to discuss this matter reasonably. That would be interesting, if it were to happen. I sort of doubt that it would, but it might be interesting.
Oh, that Beck were interested in at least a little ambiguity and a lot less hostile attacks on people of faith.
51 comments:
Funny enough, even Beck' own LDS has made clear its commitment to social justice.
He's an idiot and might just have made one of the bigger oopsies of his career in doing this.
"Now, first off, I rarely post comments from the lunatic fringe or from the court jesters of the Right (Beck, Limbaugh, Savage, etc). For the most part, I think they just say crazy stuff to get more listeners and, thus, it's best to just ignore them."
Nice tap dance. It would be nice of you lefties to post some context once in awhile rather than snippets you can use to inflame the passions of other people who also don't pay full attention. You know, like, why he said what he said, what he means by it, etc and then argue that rather than his opening statement. That would show some honesty and courage and integrity on your part. Try it. It's good for you.
As to LDS, I'm sure he has them in mind as well. But then, it's far easier than to call someone an idiot than to explain what is wrong with his positions.
Now, any honest person who reads even the quotes you chose to produce can easily see that he's not attacking any religion, but specific churches that buy into the progressive notions of "social justice" and/or "economic justice". More often than not, this is NOT a true rendering of the teachings of Christ, but a socialist or Marxist twisting of the words of Christ. Idiocy is to believe there's no difference.
Marshall, your so funny.
You mean "you're" so funny. This is true. However, I don't see what that fact has to do with either the post or my response to it. But, thank you, nonetheless.
Thing is, Marshall, that's a mistake that I hate to make. Thanks for the correction. Ugh.
I didn't SAY he was attacking specific religions, just those that believe in Jesus' word and the prophetic voice as found in the Bible.
This would include, but not be limited to, the Catholic church, the Anabaptists, many methodists, baptists, etc, etc and, according to Geoffrey, Beck's own church.
What of it?
"Marxist twisting of the words of Christ."
Luke 4:16-21
Um, yeah. Right.
Since social justice isn't in the Bible maybe Beck was right to reject it.
Alan,
Thanks for the Luke exerpt. What's your point?
"What's your point?"
That was precisely my point. Thank you for making it.
"Since social justice isn't in the Bible"
So your God is a God of injustice, Eddie?
Edwin said...
Since social justice isn't in the Bible maybe Beck was right to reject it.
You are correct, the words "social justice" aren't in the dictionary, nor is "economic justice." Neither are the terms, "Penal Substitutionary Atonement" or "Trinity." But perhaps we can agree that just because a term isn't in the Bible doesn't mean the concept isn't in the Bible. Yes?
Do you suspect that Jesus did not speak of economic justice? Do you suspect that the prophets did not speak of economic justice?
Are you opposed to economic oppression, as the prophets clearly spoke against? Do you think Jesus was wrong to say that he came specifically to preach good news to the poor, or that he was wrong when he offered as evidence that he was the One that he had preached good news specifically to the poor?
When we Christians who speak of economic justice do so, we are speaking of very biblical ideals. Is it your suspicion that the Bible does not speak to matters of economic justice? Really?
Marshall...
It would be nice of you lefties to post some context once in awhile rather than snippets you can use to inflame the passions of other people
I hope you can realize how funny this is (at least for some of us) considering the source. It has been the experience of many here, Marshall, that MANY on the Right do just this all the time (Obama is a "socialist," anyone? Dan is a "socialist?" Ring a bell??)
But I will say that it IS only a snippet. I tried looking around online to find more to find the context of the quote but was unable. By all means, Marshall, if you can, provide more of the context. Is Beck NOT actually calling for people to leave their churches if they speak of economic justice?
I am well aware (from much personal experience) that one's words can be taken out of context and thus, be misinterpreted. So, if there is some context to offer a more reasonable explanation of Beck's comments, you'll be doing me a favor by providing it.
Marshall...
More often than not, this is NOT a true rendering of the teachings of Christ, but a socialist or Marxist twisting of the words of Christ.
To be clear, HERE is what I believe about economic justice/injustice...
If anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, let him have your coat also...
Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you...
And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors...
For if you forgive others for their transgressions [literally, debts], your heavenly Father will also forgive you.
But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions [literally, debts]...
Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal...
Freely you received, freely give...
And he said to them, "It is written: 'My house shall be a house of prayer,' but you are making it a den of thieves..."
GOD HAS FILLED THE HUNGRY WITH GOOD THINGS;
And sent away the rich empty-handed...
"Blessed are you who are poor, for the kingdom of God is yours.
Blessed are you who are now hungry, for you will be satisfied...
But woe to you who are rich, for you have received your consolation.
But woe to you who are filled now, for you will be hungry...
Sell your belongings and give alms. Provide money bags for yourselves that do not wear out, an inexhaustible treasure in heaven that no thief can reach nor moth destroy.
"For where your treasure is, there also will your heart be..."
For instance.
I believe all of that fairly literally. Do you?
I believe all of that is speaking of economic justice.
Do you?
Are you opposed to any of those teachings that I would call teachings of economic justice?
Or this...
For, if you truly amend your ways and your deeds, if you truly practice justice between a man and his neighbor, if you do not oppress the alien, the orphan, and the widow, and do not shed innocent blood in this place, nor walk after other gods to your own ruin, then I will let you dwell in this place, in the land that I gave to your fathers forever and ever...
Administer justice every morning; And deliver the person who has been robbed from the power of his oppressor...
Do justice and righteousness, and deliver the one who has been robbed from the power of his oppressor. Also do not mistreat or do violence to the stranger, the orphan, or the widow; and do not shed innocent blood in this place...
Put away your misdeeds from before my eyes; cease doing evil; learn to do good. Make justice your aim: redress the wronged, hear the orphan's plea, defend the widow...
The Lord enters into judgment with his people's elders and princes: It is you who have devoured the vineyard; the loot wrested from the poor is in your houses. What do you mean by crushing my people, and grinding down the poor when they look to you?...
Woe to you who join house to house, who connect field with field, ‘Til no room remains, and you are left to dwell alone in the midst of the land!..
And if you give yourself to the hungry, and satisfy the desire of the afflicted, then your light will rise in darkness, and your gloom will become like midday...
Is this not the fast which I choose, to loosen the bonds of wickedness, to undo the bands of the yoke, and to let the oppressed go free, and break every yoke? Is it not to divide your bread with the hungry, and bring the homeless poor into the house; when you see the naked, to cover him, and not to hide yourself from your own flesh?...
For more examples of what I am speaking of when I refer to Economic Justice. Do you disagree with any of these? Many churches feel that these are central and essential Christian teachings. Beck appears to want people to reject churches who believe these teachings.
Do you think we should reject these teachings?
Again, I'd ask you to speak to what we are actually speaking of rather than some boogety man in your head that you THINK we might be speaking of. So, what IN OUR ACTUAL BELIEFS (or "my actual beliefs," to make it personal) cited above are you disagreeing with?
...OR, could this be another case of someone attacking some on the Left based on strawman false presumptions about what we believe rather than what we actually believe?
Again, judge us by our words and what we say, not what you might imagine in your fevered brains. Too many on the Right (at least around here) have demonstrated a remarkable inability to discern what we mean when they stray from what we actually say. Just see some recent conversations for all the evidence you need...
It is ridiculous that you think Jesus cared about how much money you bring in. News flash!!! Jesus said it was better to be poor. What do you think the point of the parable "The Rich Man and Poor Lazarus" was? Using the Word of God to justify worldly class warfare and government policy towards taxation and redistribution of wealth at least borders on blasphemy.
Churches that teach "social justice" should be torn down, they use religion to distract people from the true message Jesus preached. Just like any dictator and tyrant they exploit the poor and use them as leverage to push their agendas.
Again, Edwin, I just posted what I believe. Can you help me out here and point to WHICH belief exactly that you think is not Christian? That is, of all those italicized quotes above ("blessed are you who are poor, blessed are you who are hungry...") WHICH of those do you think I'm wrong for believing and why?
Edwin said...
Churches that teach "social justice" should be torn down, they use religion to distract people from the true message Jesus preached.
Help this poor sinner out, Edwin. Can you tell me what exactly you think Jesus' "true message" was? In maybe a paragraph or two, could you provide me Jesus' Edwin-approved "True message?"
Once you've done that, if you have a strong case, maybe we can start tearing down churches together, you think? After all, I am interested in Jesus' "true message" as much as anyone.
Here's your chance. Present the gospel, brother Ed.
Edwin...
Using the Word of God to justify worldly class warfare and government policy towards taxation and redistribution of wealth at least borders on blasphemy.
Who do you think has done this, Edwin? Are you suggesting I'm using the Bible to justify class warfare and gov't policy towards taxation and redistribution of wealth? Where have I said that?
It sounds like to me you're doing just as I suggested: Making up a boogetyman strawman to tear down, rather than base your complaints on my actual words. Hence, my request for you to point to which of my ACTUAL words that I posted above are you saying are wrong.
Shall you do so, or would you prefer to just back down a bit and apologize for your tone and unsupported accusations?
"News flash!!! Jesus said it was better to be poor. "
Please post PDFs of your most recent bank statement and last year's IRS form to prove that you actually believe that, Eddie.
Put up, or shut up.
Unfortunately, Edwin seems to be more of a hit and run kind of sniper, rather than someone who will actually try to defend his false claims and bad positions. We'll see, maybe he'll actually try to defend his statements.
I tend to doubt it, though. It's much easier to gossip, slander and run than to engage in civil discussion.
We'll see...
Yeah, the zillions of times I've asked him for actual evidence he's never provided it.
Now he'll switch to insults because he knows he's beaten and doesn't have any evidence to present, so he'll do what he always does: spend a few comments throwing around insults and having a tantrum and saying absolutely nothing before he gives up on this thread all together. And I'll do what I always do when he loses it: point and laugh at him.
you disregard evidence you don't like.
What is the definition of "Social Justice", Wikipedia describes it as:
. . . a concept that some use to describe the movement towards a socially just world. In this context, social justice is based on the concepts of human rights and equality and involves a greater degree of economic egalitarianism through progressive taxation, income redistribution, or even property redistribution, policies aimed toward achieving that which developmental economists refer to as more equality of opportunity and equality of outcome than may currently exist in some societies or are available to some classes in a given society.
Jesus says we should store our treasures in heaven not on Earth, the parable of the Rich Man and Poor Lazarus describes how income and social standing are meaningless to the Lord. Why would any true Christian church dedicate their time to promoting something that is meaningless to the Lord, unless they are using their congregation as a means to an end?
If you don't agree with me, then send me the verse where Jesus says your paycheck should be the same as your neighbors.
Annnnd, Dan and Alan nail it on the head. Edwin responds not by addressing our actual points, but by erecting a boogetyman scarecrow to knock down.
So, does that mean, Edwin, that you DISAGREE with me and Jesus and think that the poor AREN'T blessed? That we are NOT to stand by the poor and oppressed? Do you think you SHOULD store up treasures on earth?
I guess if you're disagreeing with my positions on biblical economic justice, then that must be the case. You are choosing to stand opposed to the churches who believe that we are to divide your bread with the hungry, and bring the homeless poor into the house, you are choosing to stand against Jesus who taught us to sell our belongings and give alms, is that your position, Edwin?
If so, if you reject the teachings of the prophets and of Jesus, then I guess you ought to leave churches that believe such and go to churches where you can sit comfortably in your wealth and power. Where you can be comfortably "arrogant, overfed and unconcerned;" and choose NOT to "help the poor and needy," and be "haughty and did detestable things before me." Is that your choice?
You are free to do so, but be careful about that - that's how the people of Sodom lived and it didn't work out so well for them.
I though it went without saying that Jesus doesn't consider money a blessing. Yet you apparently think the only way to bless the poor is with money. Jesus put a lot of stock in the good news of salvation through faith as a blessing to the poor.
that being said.
Were in the Bible does it say everyone should have a comparable income Dan?
Shorter Eddie: Let the poor starve.
Notice he didn't actually provide any evidence that even he believes what he's spouting.
Where's the evidence, Eddie? Put up or shut up.
"biblical economic justice"
Now you're just making stuff up.
Christianity 101: Giving to the poor is a blessing for the poor, I agree. It's also a good work and a fruit of faith (not your Alan) for the individual. But the "Social Justice" nuts want to make it law. Do you see the difference? Jesus also commanded us to be Baptized, should that be law too? Jesus commanded us to repent, lets make a law that everyone has to repent! Jesus gave instructions and commands for each of us to follow by our own choice. He did not give us a political system.
The way I see it your no different that the Jews who thought Jesus was going to save them by overthrowing Rome. They too were looking to Jesus for "social justice".
Still searching for that verse in the Bible that says we should all have the same income??? Let me know when you find it.
Ed...
Were in the Bible does it say everyone should have a comparable income Dan?
? Where in my post or comments do you see me arguing that everyone SHOULD have a comparable income?
Do you understand the words I'm typing, Edwin? I'm asking specifically about what I said I believe and I provided you a few quotes of what I believe. I'm asking you, what IN MY ACTUAL WORDS do you find to be problematic?
Are we on the same blog, Edwin? You appear to be arguing with someone who's not even here and you appear not to be reading what I am saying.
TEST: CAN YOU RESPOND TO THIS QUESTION, EDWIN? YES? NO?
I'm just checking to make sure that my words are appearing on your computer screen.
(Maybe that's the problem - all this misunderstanding is related to a computer glitch! Maybe when I write, "I believe that we are to watch out for the least of these," what they're seeing on their screens is "I WANT TO TAKE YOUR MONEY AND GIVE IT TO WELFARE QUEENS SO THEY CAN DRIVE CADILLACS..."
That would explain a lot...)
Alan, you are reading my actual words, aren't you? Just making sure...
This is just bizarre.
Alan, give me your name address, SSN and date of birth and I will then send you my taxes from last year.
Ok, Dan learn what "social justice" is then try again. It has become clear that you aren't even familiar with the terms you're defending.
Where in my post or comments do you see me arguing that everyone SHOULD have a comparable income?
thats the essence of social justice you idiot
Sooo, that's a NO, you CAN'T read my actual words?
Or is it the case that you CAN read them but have trouble comprehending?
I honestly don't think there's a computer glitch that is not allowing you to see my words, that was obviously a joke. I'm guessing it must be the case that you are so indoctrinated that you are unable to discern meaning from the words of those with whom you perceive you have disagreement.
Cognitive dissonance, perhaps? That is, your loyalties to your cultural and political values appears to be making you incapable of reading words and obtaining reasonable meaning from them.
Edwin, CAN YOU READ THE WORDS "COGNITIVE DISSONANCE?"
YES?
NO?
I'M NOT SURE?
Cognitive dissonance, perhaps? That is, your loyalties to your cultural and political values appears to be making you incapable of reading words and obtaining reasonable meaning from them.
you're defending a term you can't define. Why, because you hate Glen Beck? I'm glad that makes sense to you.
If you're having trouble with my relative few and small words, you will probably not see any text at this link, but here is a source for information on social and economic justice.
You will note (or maybe not) if you read the actual words that the notion of economic justice is not the same as either capitalism OR socialism, but in contrast with them both, at least on points.
Edwin, read there and strive to understand concepts based on what they are actually saying, rather than your preconceived notions of what you THINK they are saying.
Now, I will note that I don't believe this is a faith-based website which I linked to, so there concepts may be different than faith-based concepts of economic justice.
As I have noted, my concepts (and I believe many if not most Christians concerned with faithful living) of economic justice are just as I have quoted earlier. If you can read THOSE words, are there any of THEM which you are opposed to?
Thats cool but it was not what Glen Beck was talking about, was it?
Maybe you should re-read your original post, or just replace the whole thing with "I hate Beck for unknown reasons"
Edwin, your problem seems to be that you're stuck on defining a term which you appear to have little understanding of. Your only definition you have thus far offered is an excerpt from "wikipedia," which may sometimes be useful, is hardly an authoritative source.
Even so, if you will notice at wikipedia, they make reference specifically to faith-based traditions of economic justice, which may be somewhat different than other traditions. Since, IN CONTEXT, Beck was talking about faith-based groups who believe in economic justice, you should look to what THOSE groups are saying.
So, even at wikipedia, you can see that the catholic church is talking about social justice in terms of...
1 Life and dignity of the human person: The foundational principle of all Catholic Social Teaching is the sanctity of all human life and the inherent dignity of every human person. Human life must be valued above all material possessions.
2. Preferential option for the poor and vulnerable: Jesus taught that on the Day of Judgment, God will ask what each person did to help the poor and needy: "Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me." The Catholic Church teaches that through words, prayers and deeds one must show solidarity with, and compassion for, the poor. The moral test of any society is "how it treats its most vulnerable members. The poor have the most urgent moral claim on the conscience of the nation. People are called to look at public policy decisions in terms of how they affect the poor."
And that's only the Catholic tradition, but still, FROM WHAT THEY ACTUALLY SAY about Economic Justice, do you have a problem with that?
Or are you still arguing against an invisible person?
it was not what Glen Beck was talking about, was it?
You tell me. The quote I offered is Beck saying "I beg you, look for the words 'social justice' or 'economic justice' on your church Web site. If you find it, run as fast as you can."
Those are Beck's words. Do you have more context to show that he was actually speaking of something different? I could be wrong. I couldn't find any more context available online. So, if I have misunderstood Beck, I gladly offer you the chance to defend him with HIS ACTUAL WORDS.
What part of "actual words" are you failing to understand in this conversation, Edwin?
I guess if you want to know what Glen Beck was talking about go to my comment @1:52. It is the current definition of "Social Justice".
I can see your in the your typical redefine words stage, I'm loosing interest so have fun with the last word.
Dan, when a moron like Eddie choses to define social justice by using wikipedia, anyone can see how useless discussing anything with him is going to be. LOL And then when he now argues that wikipedia must contain the one and only definition of what social justice means...
Well, you get the picture. LOL
And now he bows out, as I predicted. So much the better.
You are, of course, right, Alan. I had just expected more.
The problem, then, is...
1. Some terms don't have "commonly accepted" meanings.
2. Two of those terms are "social justice" or "economic justice." These aren't dictionary words where you can open it and get the One True Meaning.
3. Nonetheless, some people have defined this term as being closely associated with socialism and then they have proceeded to proclaim that this is the One True Meaning.
4. Therefore, these sorts declare, anyone who supports social justice MUST be talking about that term by the definition they have chosen and,
5. Therefore, if you support social justice (as they define it), then you are a monster and a boogety man and no matter what you SAY you mean by the term, they know better, they being the ones with True Knowledge and Enlightenment.
(Interestingly, they seem to be much the same group that uses fairly standard dictionary terms like slaughter, genocide, innocent, etc, and define them other than in common standard English and get upset if you don't know what they mean because they, once again, are the ones with the One True Meaning, being Keepers of what Is and Isn't True.)
What can you do but join with Alan and point and laugh? Or maybe sigh and feel pity?
Reading this comment thread is surreal. "Tear down churches that preach social justice", Edwin? Lord, there won't be a church left standing! Even the Baptists preach and live out social justice, in their mission work.
Dan is quite right. Rather than respond to the Biblical witness - pretty clear from Genesis onward, that the God we profess is a God who actually takes sides, whose presence is with those whom society rejects, that we are to live our lives in solidarity with them because that is where God is, that we are to build not just faith communities but human communities that reflect this Divine option - he uses wikipedia and asks stupid, irrelevant questions that have nothing to do with the topic.
Since when have Edwin, or Marshall, or any of these folks, actually addressed the topic at hand?
Exactly Geoffrey. All those Baptist churches, Methodist Churches, Presbyterian Churches, heck even Mormons that have sent out Missionaries as teachers and doctors, built schools and hospitals and wells for clean water to try to improve the lives of the less fortunate around the world...
"Tear them down!" says Beck and those who worship him, like Eddie.
Morons.
the difference between Christian charity and "social justice" is the "churches" that want social justice want to change the existing laws at the federal level. I thought that went without saying but apparently you retards have no idea what your talking about.
And yes I agree with Beck, activist churches should be torn down to make way for actual Christ centered Churches.
Edwin...
the difference between Christian charity and "social justice" is the "churches" that want social justice want to change the existing laws at the federal level. I thought that went without saying but apparently you retards have no idea what your talking about.
1. Edwin, it is not acceptable to refer to visitors here (or myself, for that matter) as "retards." Clean up your language, please, or go away. That's your one and only warning.
2. So, you believe that churches that believe in social justice want to change federal laws. Fair enough. Which ones do you suspect we want to change? No one here has called for changing laws that I know of, but it's possible I might want to see laws changed. In fact, I suspect that YOU, Edwin, would like to see laws changed.
3. So, are you saying that any church or Christian that would like to see a federal law changed is someone who believes in social justice? And that if one believes in social justice one's church should be torn down?
Clarify please, or go away. I'll have to let you know that I've had just about enough of unfounded, unsupported wild-eyed, nutty charges. If you have a case to make, make it.
Sometimes social and economic justice are just codewords for pushing a politically leftist agenda. Other times, they just mean that the congregation in question has at least a passing familiarity the Bible, which is saturated with outrage against social evils.
Not that I really have a dog in this fight....
Well, at least that is a more logically defensible statement, John. I'm wondering, though, if you know of any specific churches that have those as "code words" or if that's just a hunch?
Eddie: "I'm loosing interest so have fun with the last word."
I knew that was too good to last.
Okay, I've got nothing, Dan. I had passing encounters with such churches in the past, but I don't remember any names.
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