Following up on the previous post:
Out of concern of some preacher-bashing and truth-twisting that I've seen taking place, here are some REAL quotes expressing some of Reverend Jeremiah Wright's ACTUAL thoughts (as opposed to words and ideas that people are trying to foist on him):
“I don’t know how you can do ministry without having social justice as a piece of what you are doing."
“Jesus says, ‘As you’ve done to the least of these, you’ve done to me.’ [Each of] the ministries of our church address some of that Jesus agenda...”
[Trinity United Church of Christ members can get involved with more than 50 ministries, including those dedicated to supporting people affected by HIV/AIDS, victims of domestic violence and the un- and underemployed. TUCC also houses a community computer center and offers numerous educational opportunities for youth and adults in the congregation.]
“Don’t confuse your ‘bling-bling’ with your blessings. Don’t try to impress your oppressors.”
[One of the precepts of TUCC’s 12-Point Black Value System, established by the congregation in 1981, is the “disavowal of the pursuit of ‘middleclassness.’]
“In a democracy we need to learn how to disagree without breaking up our house and getting a divorce. We need to learn how to be unified in terms of nobody should go to bed hungry, nobody should die unnecessarily.”
[Can I get an Amen?]
"We bombed Hiroshima, we bombed Nagasaki, and we nuked far more than the thousands in New York and the Pentagon, and we never batted an eye, We should have nuked Washington DC..."
"We have supported state terrorism against the Palestinians and black South Africans, and now we are indignant because the stuff we have done overseas is now brought right back to our own front yards. America's chickens are coming home to roost..."
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Now, as I state in the next post, I don't know jack about Jeremiah except for some brief snippets and quotes. He may well be putting out hateful or at least ill-advised messages.
But from what I've SEEN posted about him (as opposed to his actual postions) I suspect there's an attempt at a digital lynching going on in some "christian" quarters.
Now, I'm not one to normally do the "quote" thing around "christian," but the behavior I've seen demonstrated is not Christian in any sense.
If you have a problem with a brother, you point it out to them and, if you must discuss it publicly, you point out exactly what he's done that you disagree with. You don't say he's a false teacher and a hater and a racist without supporting such dangerous accusations.
Shameful, shameful, shameful.
I join with Wright in saying, "God DAMN that sort of behavior."
19 comments:
Oh, Dan, Dan, "thou that stonest the prophets and killest them that are sent unto thee!"
You'll forgive me for finding this all so amusing. How convenient to not know the context of the good reverend's sermons.
This is a very mild dose of what's to come. The present carefully measured drops of vitriol are to keep Obama from getting too awfully far ahead of Clinton. Gotta keep them dems scrapping until the caucus!
But it's the tip of the iceberg. Obama himself has written reams with the theme of "kill the white man". Just as soon as his nomination is secure, get a bowl popcorn and enjoy the show.
Oh, Eleutheros, Eleutheros, Eleutheros. Surely thou aren't amongst those that kickest against the goads?
You think Obama wants to "kill the white man"? Really?
And you know the context of the sermons that have been excerpted? By all means, point us to the place where we may read them ourselves.
Dan:"You think Obama wants to "kill the white man"? Really?"
Dan, let' not let this slip into the double digit IQ type of partisan thing of which some of your erstwhile conservative contributors avail themselves. What I think isn't germane. I don't personally elect the president. What matters is what most people think or can be persuaded to think.
Obama's collected writings are very racist, in my use of the term. All the ills of every downtrodden individual in the word are because of the evil white people suppressing them. He may very well have changed his mind about that as he has matured, but it won't matter. While some people will take the theme literally, 'kill the white man' is a handle on the attitude that all of us pigment impaired males sit around day and night brooding over ways to suppress everyone and that's why there is disparity and poverty.
Dan:"And you know the context of the sermons that have been excerpted?"
I give you more credit than that. The old "context" ploy comes into play when someone makes clearly outrageous statements (hate sermons they are being called) and the apologist hopes against hope that a few sentences later the good reverend says he was only joking or some such.
The good reverend's statements say what they say. If you want to posit that they say something different than what they say, then by all means do so. One does not ask one who objects to Rev. Wright's outrageous statements to prove that's what he really meant to say.
None the less, go here:
http://www.tucc.org/home.htm
click on the bookstore and you can by CD's or DVD's of the sermons in question.
I give you more credit than that. The old "context" ploy comes into play when someone makes clearly outrageous statements...
And I give you more credit than that, E. Context always matters.
In the "God damn America" example, for instance, the small snippet of the conversation that I've read, goes like this:
"The government gives them the drugs, builds bigger prisons, passes a three-strike law and then wants us to sing 'God Bless America.'
"No, no, no, God damn America, that's in the Bible for killing innocent people, God damn America for treating our citizens as less than human. God damn America for as long as she acts like she is God and she is supreme."
In this brief excerpt, what Wright is clearly damning is racism, oppression, America acting like God. Now, if one wants to make the case that racism isn't all that bad anymore, then do so. But clearly, in context this isn't America bashing so much as it is bashing those aspects of America that OUGHT to be bashed.
Racism OUGHT to be condemned. America acting like some power-mad god OUGHT to be condemned and strongly so.
If you don't think racism is as bad as Wright does, well fine. But it is misrepresenting this quote in context to suggest that Wright is saying here that he hates America or Whitey.
At best, you can't make that case from this quote. You might say that Wright overplays the point here and you'd want to see more of what he's saying because it sounds a bit like he's demonizing Whitey (although he never mentions "whitey" in this snippet), but those who read this and find racism or an inciting of hatred in it are plain and simple reading things into what Wright said that just factually, objectively aren't there.
What's fascinating to me is that, in my brief foray about some websites to see what folk are saying, is the presumption of how OBVIOUS it is that Wright is racist. No one is even wanting to quote a verse to show where exactly they are finding racist, hateful content.
They have told me at several sites, "IF you can't see the racism and hatred, then you're a dolt, an idiot, the Devil, etc, etc, etc." It's fascinating that there's not even a need to discuss this. Either you agree that Wright is a false prophet, black Muslim (!), racist hater or you're just wrong or on the side of the terrorists.
It's quite insane.
Having said all that, let me repeat what I've said several times, this is not even a defense of Wright. I don't know his views well enough to defend them or to want to defend them. This is a condemnation of blind hatred on the part of those who are hating on Wright.
If you can't articulate WHY someone is a racist hatemonger, then you have NO business making the charge.
Wright is a racist, I've already covered this. Apparently your criterion for Wright being a racist is for us to find a quote in one of his sermons where he says "I am a racist. I think we should kill the white man." (I guess his "nuke DC" comment didn't make the cut).
No. Wait. That would be out of context. He's have to title the sermon "I am a racist" and then at least twenty times throughout the sermon say, "I really, really AM a racist, I'm not kidding."
Wright's theme in almost every sermon recorded and readily available is "All your problems as minority people are because 'the country' (ie white people) are racist and inflicting this on you the non-white people.
Did you notice, Dan, that the motto of his ministry is "Unashamedly black and unapologetically Christian." Try embarking on an ministry whose motto is "Unashamedly white ..." and see how long it is before you are called a racist.
The definition of racist is a person who thinks there is something different about members of his own race that other races do not enjoy or suffer from. How can you read three lines of Rev Wright's rantings and avoid the clear message that everything that ails his constituents is because they are of a different race than their oppressors.
Ranting and preaching about imagined racism is ... racist.
Dude! He's an open racist and the prophet of exactly the kind of vengeance-driven christianity that is dangerous to good people.
Dan, you should be ashamed of yourself for defending Wright or Obama...either one!
Obama CANNOT separate himself or his beliefs from those of the chuch he has been faithful to for his adult life. He cannot.
You should be condemning both of these bastards and you well know it. But you are too proud to admit that you have been duped into supporting the very hate-filled religiosity that you claim to abhor.
Face it...you're wrong about everything politically...and spiritually.
Shame on you for your aggressive ignorance and wicked pride!
eleutheros:
The definition of racist is a person who thinks there is something different about members of his own race that other races do not enjoy or suffer from.
The definition of a racist is a person who believes that the color of their skin makes them superior in some way to people with different levels of pigmentation.
The idea that some races may have enjoyed more or suffered more than others, that's just a simple fact.
Bruce:"The definition of a racist is a person who believes that the color of their skin makes them superior in some way to people with different levels of pigmentation."
No. Believing you are superior is not necessarily part of the definition of racist. You might well believe that the other race is superior and this would qualify you as a racist, or even just believing that the other race is different and the same reality does not apply to you both.
Bruce:"The idea that some races may have enjoyed more or suffered more than others, that's just a simple fact."
Entirely beside the point. What Wright posits is that his constituents have suffered more, not because of their own bad decisions and destructive lifestyles, but rather because of their race. Or more to the point, because of the race of the imagined oppressors. Even if you point out the devastating degree of teen pregnancy, drug use, dependency on public support, Wright says that's also because of racist policies.
The working definition (not the linguistic one to which I refer)is that anything critical of a person of a minority race is de facto racist. "Obama, your tie is crooked" ..... ah! That's a racist comment, it was motivated by deep racist hatred!
A spot advertising Neal Boortz radio show (and was amusing enough for me to find the show and listen to it a few times) has Boortz saying:"People say this is 'hate radio' and motivated by racism. So I decided to tone down the show last week and gave my favorite cake recipe. I got this email, 'I hate your cake! I'm never going to listen to your show again. It is an evil, racist cake!' There you go, I can't win."
It's a joke of course, it didn't really happen. But it points out the mis-use of the word 'racist'. Used correctly, Wright is a racist. He is rabble rousing sentiment against an imagined scapegoat enemy.
Now where in history have we seen this happen before? Oh, yes, it's what the Nazis did. They fabricated stories that the Jews were manipulating the society and economy to keep the average Fritz on the street suppressed and poor.
Now where in history have we seen this happen before? Oh, yes, it's what the Nazis did.
Enough. You want to believe Wright's comments were racist? Knock yerself out. They weren't, in fact (the comments that I've read weren't, anyway - seeing as how they had very little to do with race), but you are free to believe it if you want. But enough of the goofy Nazi comparisons. You can shovel that manure on your own blog.
This sounds more and more like a few jerks who fear Obama (not necessarily including you in with the jerks, E), who are jumping on this Wright thing because it's the best they can come up with in hopes of derailing his steamroller campaign.
They'll Willie Horton him if they can. But I don't think they can. I think we, as a nation ARE far enough past the days of overt racism that these ridiculous charges about nothing to do with Obama just won't even begin to stick with the majority of the People.
"Fear of the Angry Black Man" as a campaign strategy ain't gonna fly in this campaign, or at least that's my prayer.
Dan:"But enough of the goofy Nazi comparisons"
Ah. That's what I would have thought. No refutation for the comparison, just call it goofy and manure.
The Nazis stripped away the national conscience by institutionally indoctrinating people with far-fetched, horrible stories about the Jews, many of which stories circulate to this day.
Reverend Wright preached from his pulpit that the US government, he specified it as the Whiter US government, produced and distributed drugs to black people for the express purpose of arresting them and sending them to prison to get them out of the population. (From a sermon in 2003)
Reverend Wright preached from the pulpit that the (again White) US government developed the AIDS virus in a program to kill off the black population of America. (A sermon delivered at Howard University on January 15, 2006)
Institutionalized (function of the church) fantastic stories to make a demon of white Americans.
Correct me then and tell my why this is different from what was said about the Jews.
As to him being a racist, here are some quotes:
"One 18-year-old white girl from Alabama gets drunk on a graduation trip to Aruba, goes off and 'gives it up' while in a foreign country, and that stays in the news for months!" (Why specify her as white??
"In the 21st century, white America got a wake-up call after 9/11/01. White America and the western world came to realize that people of color had not gone away, faded into the woodwork or just disappeared as the Great White West kept on its merry way of ignoring black concerns."
"We [in the U.S.] believe in white supremacy and black inferiority and believe it more than we believe in God.”
Why does he constantly mention 'white'? And these are some of his mildest quotes (the rest are on YouTube and MP3 files and I don't have the attention right now to transcribe them.
Dan, if anyone else took Rev Wright's statements, put the word 'black' in instead of 'white', you'd condemn them as a racist outright, do you deny it?
I know you must be upset now that the good senator's nomination and election aren't any longer a foregone conclusion. But you might try to be objective about it and give your commenters at least as much sack as you allow the Rev Wright.
Dan Quotes:"The government gives them the drugs, builds bigger prisons, passes a three-strike law and then wants us to sing 'God Bless America.' "
Sorry, Dan, I seem to have overlooked that you included this quote as an illustration that Wright is just speaking out against racism.
Look carefully at the first clause:
"The government gives them drugs ..."
This is expounded in other of Wright's sermons and in the very sermon you quote it has an antecedent. "The government gives them drugs " is Wrights theory that the (white) US government is manufacturing drugs and has a system to distribute them to black people in order to be able to arrest them and put them in jail.
E, his specifies the gov't. He does not say the "White US gov't."
He sounds goofy for getting off on conspiracy theories, he does not sound racist. Peddle it elsewhere.
He referenced the kidnapped white girl because in reality, the news covers the disappearance and murder of white folk to a much greater degree. So yes, that is brought up because of racism, but it's the media's white racism that causes him to mention that as a matter of justice. And good for him doing so!
He mentions white racism because it is a reality still. Perhaps not to the degree he thinks it is.
Believe it or not, there is a huge difference in mentioning race to point out racism (as a matter of Justice which good folk and Christians OUGHT to be concerned about) and mentioning race to put down people. As a white man, I do not feel that Wright is speaking specifically about me, he's talking about instances of oppression or racism.
Peddle it elsewhere, E.
You know, Eleutheros, it's rare that I think you are out and out wrong, but I think that's the case here. But by all means, believe what you want.
I'll pass on your more paranoid moments, just as I'll pass on Wright's. But I won't reject Wright when he's right, nor will I reject you when you're right.
Dan:"Peddle it elsewhere, E."
I would be more than happy to, Dan, except that I am not peddling anything. However, I will be happy to comply with your 'elsewhere'.
Hitherto you have always left this blog open to discussion and airing of differing viewpoints with the result that I've always been able to pick up something I didn't know or at least a view point I've not taken.
Apparently the adoration of St. Obama runs so deep that one may not tread on the toes of any of His acolytes. Discussion is effectively stopped.
As I would expect you can tell, my blog isn't political in nature as yours often is. I only touch on politics as it pertains to the consumerist culture. When I post something about consumerism and right livelihood, I am inviting comment and discussion of that. I extend the same courtesy to you by assuming that when you publish two posts in a row about Jeremiah Wright, you are inviting discussion.
And as I have pointed out on my blog, I don't have a dog in the fight. It doesn't matter who the next president is (especially among the three remaining candidates) because the economic reality will swamp out any political reality and all three remain blissfully clueless.
So I only brought the discussion here because you invited it. There is no 'elsewhere' to take it.
I could answer the points you brought up item by item and continue the discussion, but to what purpose? Just as I always asked you on the religious discussions to come up with the criteria by which we interpret the Bible, I would ask you to come up with the criteria of what makes a person, or speech, or statements racist. When those criteria include "a racist is a person who ... unless, of course, they are associated with Barak Obama and then they by definition can't be a racist", discussion is impossible.
Most people did not have a clue as to what Obama proposed to do as president, his intentions in the minds of most was a void. You yourself listed his most appealing attribute as 'he's not Bush'. Yet they, fan and opponent alike, wanted to know. The whole racism thing with Wright has rushed in to fill this void. If enough Obama supporters have the same 'take it elsewhere' attitude you have, you will have effectively killed Obama's chances at the presidency.
The "take it elsewhere" commentary is on unsupported attacks based on what you THINK someone else is saying and the suggestion that it somehow is like the Nazis.
By all means, critique Obama's or Wright's or my actual words and what I'm/we're saying. I mean, I criticized Wright's comments, I have no problem with critiquing commentary.
It's the unsupported accustions and the egregious and ridiculous comparisons to Nazism that I'm suggesting you take elsewhere.
If you have a problem with Wright saying "God damn America" then criticize him for saying that. If you have a problem with the suggestion that the gov't created AIDS to attack blacks, criticize that.
But don't say, "And what that means is that he hates Whitey and is therefore a racist and a Nazi." That is what I find a ridiculous leap.
And it is NOT because I'm especially a defender of Wright's, since I don't really know what all he stands for. I've just seen enough unsupported strawman attacks to recognize them when they're coming.
I'm just getting into this conversation a few days late, so I want to skip back to an accusation that elutheros made the other day:
"Obama's collected writings are very racist, in my use of the term."
I'm curious - where are these so-called "collected writings" you speak of? If you can direct me to them, then great - I would like to know more about the candidate's views outside of the typical glossed-over public bio. Otherwise, it seems like you are tossing out a bit of BS to prove an unsubstantiated point.
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Anonymous,
"Why seek ye the living among the dead??"
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