A series of attempted conversations at Stan's blog (Winging It). He won't actually post my questions and concerns, but he will sometimes reply to them without mentioning them. The problem is that he inevitably misunderstands/misstates what I'm saying and so his answers are always missing the point of the problems his personal human opinions have. He's been dealing with the theory/tradition about an eternally angry god who, by design, loves some humans and literally hates others and that, indeed, he creates MOST people for the purpose of sending them into eternal torture/torment for the sake of "glorifying" god's own self.
That is the theory that Stan is operating under. Or at least appears to be and I'm pretty sure it is, but since he doesn't answer direct questions directly, I could be mistaken. I believe that other conservative religionists (Craig and perhaps Marshal) disagree at least in part with that, but there again, it's hard to say. I think they ALL hold the theory that God will send most of humanity to hell. But any one of them can clarify if they do so directly and clearly and respectfully.
Before I go further, I'm not coming down on this side or that side of "Is this human theory/tradition a correct understanding of the Bible...?" I'm saying it's missing the point (and yes, of course, IF we only had the written text of the biblical passages to know and understand ANYTHING, then I'd come down on the side of Hell no, hell doesn't make biblical, rational or moral sense).
To Stan, I said and asked:
I could be mistaken, but I'd be willing to
bet that there is only ONE (or perhaps a handful) of places where a
passage offers words that COULD be taken to suggest that most people
will be condemned to eternal torture (uggh! What evil news, literally as
far apart as possible from actual Good News!).
I'd guess the main place that SOME might interpret that way would be from Matthew 7, the Sermon on the Mount, where Jesus says (in context):
“Ask
and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door
will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; the one who
seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.
“Which
of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he
asks for a fish, will give him a snake? If you, then, though you are
evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will
your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! So in
everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this
sums up the Law and the Prophets.
“Enter
through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road
that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the
gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."
Now,
I can certainly see how, if that last part was THE ONE AND ONLY INFORMATION that
was told to you to be about God and an afterlife, that some might say,
"well, wait, does that mean most people are heading towards
"destruction..."? And if so, what does that mean?"
But
it doesn't perforce demand a "hell" of eternal torture for most of
humanity. There are many ways to be destroyed. A town may be destroyed
and then rebuilt, after all. This could be more temporal and in this life,
in intention. It could also be hyperbole, could it not? Also, keep in
mind, the Greek word there might best be translated as Ruin or Loss or
Perdition... or other words suggest the notion of "destroy" (of course,
destruction/be destroyed). But that would raise another problem. A thing
destroyed has ceased to exist. It is not kept alive in torment, it's
gone.
Then again, consider the context.
The verses right before it assure us that (or course) a Good God knows
how to give good gifts and WILL give good gifts because that is the
nature of a good human and a good God. Heck, the passage says, even
"bad" people know to give good gifts.
Presumably
then, the person who finds themselves in torment or torture may well
ask for relief - it's a perfectly human thing to do, after all. AND,
according to the text in this same proof text of yours, a good God
stands ready and willing to give good gifts, to give relief to that
torment.
Because, of course, that's what being perfectly good, perfectly loving and perfectly just beings do, right?
So
even the ONE text that you're most likely to point to as "proof" of
"most" people being tortured for an eternity undermines that theory.
And, of course, does not insist upon that theory. That is reading INTO
the text something it doesn't demand. Who says this is a text about an
afterlife? Not the text. Who says this text is intended to be understood literally? Not the text.
So, beyond that one text
which doesn't say directly at all what you think it says and which, in
context, undermines the notion of a cruel and evil eternal torture for
most people, what OTHER passages would you look to in order to even TRY
to make a consistent, rational and biblical case for the theory that
most of humanity will be tortured forever, per "god" and, indeed," that
this "god" created most of humanity for the sole purpose of torturing
them forever - AND, for the purpose of bringing "glory" to that little
devilish imp-godling? (And God have mercy, what an awful, belittling way to speak of God. "god" as the Eternal Bully. I guess I just have a high view of God, that way!)
Here's what the
conservatives at the Gospel Coalition offer as the ten most compelling
("foundational") passages for eternal torture...
https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/justin-taylor/ten-foundational-verses-for-eternal-punishment-in-hell/
Look
at them with an objective eye. Can you see that they do not even begin
to point to the notion that these passages insist upon the bad news of
eternal torture... and certainly not for MOST of humanity? If not, can
you at least see where decent rational people of good faith would object
to these theories?
Each of these
passages are built upon unspecified/vague claims that "the evil" ones or
those who "worship the beast" or those who reject God... and none of
them insist that this is the majority of humanity. That would be reading
INTO the text something that isn't there. Right?
Is
it the case that your one and only verse for theorizing that "most" of
humanity will suffer the bad/evil news of eternal torture is the Matthew
7 one... which does not say that directly at all? Or, at the very least, can you see why reasonable people throughout church history have, in good faith, disagreed with that human theory?
And also, can you even acknowledge that this IS a human theory, not something God has told you? I'm pretty sure the answer is no, that it's a foregone conclusion and those who disagree with this human theory disagree with "god." But you all tell me.
Stan:
...completely ignore the vast numbers of verses regarding judgment and hell...
I
know this "vast number of verses about hell" is accepted dogma amongst some conservatives, but have you
counted that? Did you know Jesus seemed to address something like Hell
about maybe, six or seven times in the gospels (not individual mentions,
but passages - in Matthew 5, for instance, in the space of three or so
verses he uses the word three times, but that's really one instance of
teaching)? And really, it's probably closer to three to five separate,
distinct instances/teachings.
FIVE entire times that Jesus brings it up... AND without clarifying if he meant it literally or figuratively or otherwise.
Perhaps
it's not something Jesus concentrated on as much as you have been
taught to believe? (I was certainly indoctrinated to believe that
wholeheartedly until I read more closely.)
Poverty
was spoken of (by Jesus) more like 20-30 times (at least - even more, when considering
context), by way of comparison... and homosexuality, Zero times, by way
of comparison).
And as to "Jesus
speaking more of hell than heaven," that would depend upon
interpretations, but I'd say you'd really have to stretch the meaning of
the texts to reach that conclusion.
Jesus
spoke endlessly of the realm of God, the Kingdom of Heaven, etc. These
ARE passages of heaven, I'd say and that would equal way more than the
five Hells that Jesus mentions. There are 31 distinct mentions of the
Kingdom of Heaven in Matthew alone (and again, some of those are repeats
of the word within one passage/teaching, but still).
Kingdom of God, on the other hand, shows up 54 times in the four gospels.
Jesus certainly did not talk more about hell than heaven and he barely spoke of hell. Just fyi.
