Eternal Torture is Loving and Just...? Really?

A series of attempted conversations at Stan's blog (Winging It). He won't actually post my questions and concerns, but he will sometimes reply to them without mentioning them. The problem is that he inevitably misunderstands/misstates what I'm saying and so his answers are always missing the point of the problems his personal human opinions have. He's been dealing with the theory/tradition about an eternally angry god who, by design, loves some humans and literally hates others and that, indeed, he creates MOST people for the purpose of sending them into eternal torture/torment for the sake of "glorifying" god's own self.

That is the theory that Stan is operating under. Or at least appears to be and I'm pretty sure it is, but since he doesn't answer direct questions directly, I could be mistaken. I believe that other conservative religionists (Craig and perhaps Marshal) disagree at least in part with that, but there again, it's hard to say. I think they ALL hold the theory that God will send most of humanity to hell. But any one of them can clarify if they do so directly and clearly and respectfully.

Before I go further, I'm not coming down on this side or that side of "Is this human theory/tradition a correct understanding of the Bible...?" I'm saying it's missing the point (and yes, of course, IF we only had the written text of the biblical passages to know and understand ANYTHING, then I'd come down on the side of Hell no, hell doesn't make biblical, rational or moral sense).

To Stan, I said and asked:

I could be mistaken, but I'd be willing to bet that there is only ONE (or perhaps a handful) of places where a passage offers words that COULD be taken to suggest that most people will be condemned to eternal torture (uggh! What evil news, literally as far apart as possible from actual Good News!).

I'd guess the main place that SOME might interpret that way would be from Matthew 7, the Sermon on the Mount, where Jesus says (in context):

“Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.

“Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."

Now, I can certainly see how, if that last part was THE ONE AND ONLY INFORMATION that was told to you to be about God and an afterlife, that some might say, "well, wait, does that mean most people are heading towards "destruction..."? And if so, what does that mean?"

But it doesn't perforce demand a "hell" of eternal torture for most of humanity. There are many ways to be destroyed. A town may be destroyed and then rebuilt, after all. This could be more temporal and in this life, in intention. It could also be hyperbole, could it not? Also, keep in mind, the Greek word there might best be translated as Ruin or Loss or Perdition... or other words suggest the notion of "destroy" (of course, destruction/be destroyed). But that would raise another problem. A thing destroyed has ceased to exist. It is not kept alive in torment, it's gone.

Then again, consider the context. The verses right before it assure us that (or course) a Good God knows how to give good gifts and WILL give good gifts because that is the nature of a good human and a good God. Heck, the passage says, even "bad" people know to give good gifts.

Presumably then, the person who finds themselves in torment or torture may well ask for relief - it's a perfectly human thing to do, after all. AND, according to the text in this same proof text of yours, a good God stands ready and willing to give good gifts, to give relief to that torment.

Because, of course, that's what being perfectly good, perfectly loving and perfectly just beings do, right?

So even the ONE text that you're most likely to point to as "proof" of "most" people being tortured for an eternity undermines that theory. And, of course, does not insist upon that theory. That is reading INTO the text something it doesn't demand. Who says this is a text about an afterlife? Not the text. Who says this text is intended to be understood literally? Not the text.

So, beyond that one text which doesn't say directly at all what you think it says and which, in context, undermines the notion of a cruel and evil eternal torture for most people, what OTHER passages would you look to in order to even TRY to make a consistent, rational and biblical case for the theory that most of humanity will be tortured forever, per "god" and, indeed," that this "god" created most of humanity for the sole purpose of torturing them forever - AND, for the purpose of bringing "glory" to that little devilish imp-godling? (And God have mercy, what an awful, belittling way to speak of God. "god" as the Eternal Bully. I guess I just have a high view of God, that way!)

Here's what the conservatives at the Gospel Coalition offer as the ten most compelling ("foundational") passages for eternal torture...

https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/justin-taylor/ten-foundational-verses-for-eternal-punishment-in-hell/

Look at them with an objective eye. Can you see that they do not even begin to point to the notion that these passages insist upon the bad news of eternal torture... and certainly not for MOST of humanity? If not, can you at least see where decent rational people of good faith would object to these theories?

Each of these passages are built upon unspecified/vague claims that "the evil" ones or those who "worship the beast" or those who reject God... and none of them insist that this is the majority of humanity. That would be reading INTO the text something that isn't there. Right?

Is it the case that your one and only verse for theorizing that "most" of humanity will suffer the bad/evil news of eternal torture is the Matthew 7 one... which does not say that directly at all? Or, at the very least, can you see why reasonable people throughout church history have, in good faith, disagreed with that human theory?

And also, can you even acknowledge that this IS a human theory, not something God has told you? I'm pretty sure the answer is no, that it's a foregone conclusion and those who disagree with this human theory disagree with "god." But you all tell me.

Stan:

...completely ignore the vast numbers of verses regarding judgment and hell...

I know this "vast number of verses about hell" is accepted dogma amongst some conservatives, but have you counted that? Did you know Jesus seemed to address something like Hell about maybe, six or seven times in the gospels (not individual mentions, but passages - in Matthew 5, for instance, in the space of three or so verses he uses the word three times, but that's really one instance of teaching)? And really, it's probably closer to three to five separate, distinct instances/teachings.

FIVE entire times that Jesus brings it up... AND without clarifying if he meant it literally or figuratively or otherwise.

Perhaps it's not something Jesus concentrated on as much as you have been taught to believe? (I was certainly indoctrinated to believe that wholeheartedly until I read more closely.)

Poverty was spoken of (by Jesus) more like 20-30 times (at least - even more, when considering context), by way of comparison... and homosexuality, Zero times, by way of comparison).

And as to "Jesus speaking more of hell than heaven," that would depend upon interpretations, but I'd say you'd really have to stretch the meaning of the texts to reach that conclusion.

Jesus spoke endlessly of the realm of God, the Kingdom of Heaven, etc. These ARE passages of heaven, I'd say and that would equal way more than the five Hells that Jesus mentions. There are 31 distinct mentions of the Kingdom of Heaven in Matthew alone (and again, some of those are repeats of the word within one passage/teaching, but still).

Kingdom of God, on the other hand, shows up 54 times in the four gospels.

Jesus certainly did not talk more about hell than heaven and he barely spoke of hell. Just fyi.

The Greening of the Spirit

Uncle Ralph (Waldo Emerson) reflected, "The creation of a thousand forests is in one acorn." And we can see that in the fall and winter times... a single oak can produce thousands of acorns. They're still out there on the ground, even now.

And here's the thing: The oak is not stingy about it. The oak does not try to hoard all those acorns, growing thorns around them so no one can get to them.

The oak is gracious and generous. And IF a squirrel (or hundreds of squirrels) "steals" an acorn for its own nourishment, the oak doesn't take offense. It is generous. It is gracious. It is giving.

Nature is like that. God is like that. The Beloved Community can embrace that, as well.

And to be sure, it can be hard in these cold winter times, when the stingy and graceless try to hoard and hoard, taking for themselves and unwilling or fearful to think about sharing with others. They demand "efficiency," not grace. They push away rather than gather in.

Nonetheless, the way of sharing, abundance and grace is the right way to go. There is a place for wise use of resources and "efficiency," but that really should be as a subset of grace and abundant sharing.

As various biblical writers and wise people have long noted, what happens to the stingy and the hoarders when they push others away and try to take it all for themselves, perhaps in the name of "efficiency" and with false claims about "They're all a bunch of lazy thieves!" ...what happens to these hoarders? They end up with a bunch of rotten, useless acorns. This is because acorns were meant to be shared and spread with careless abandon.

The greedy farmer said, "This is what I’ll do. I will tear down my barns and build bigger ones, and there I will store my surplus grain."

But God replied, "You fool! This very night your life will be demanded from you. Then who will get what you have prepared for yourself?"

And when the Manna ("what is it?") fell to the ground so that there was enough for everyone... what happened to those who greedily tried to store more than they needed away? It rotted.

And when the rich business people refused to pay their laborers for the work they had done? God lashed out at them...

Now listen, you rich people, weep and wail because of the misery that is coming on you. Your wealth has rotted, and moths have eaten your clothes. Your gold and silver are corroded. Their corrosion will testify against you and eat your flesh like fire. You have hoarded wealth in the last days. Look! The wages you failed to pay the workers who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord Almighty. You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves in the day of slaughter.

May we embrace grace and grow into abundance and grow into sharing. May the season of the Greening of the Spirit begin soon and take deep roots.

Don't be Used by a User

 

Don't be deceived... anytime an openly hedonistic, openly corrupt, clearly amoral narcissist leader welcomes the religious into his house, he is always only planning on using them for personal gain and power. It's almost biblical, isn't it?

And I know that I've heard some conservatives note that he is a greedy, filthy man, but that maybe GOD can use "such a man" for saving the church. Again, the only one who will be used are the religious people who lend him their support. Corrupt con men have already told you who they are and what they want - power and money. If they're playing nice with you, it's only to use you. A dog returns to its vomit, St Peter also says.

More from 2 Peter 2:

"These false teachers take pleasure in openly doing evil,

so they are like dirty spots and stains among you.

They delight in trickery while eating meals with you.

Every time they look at a woman they want her,

and their desire for sin is never satisfied.

They lead weak people into the trap of sin,

and they have taught their hearts to be greedy...

They brag with words that mean nothing...

These false teachers promise [the duped followers/supporters] freedom,

but they themselves are not free.

They are slaves of things that will be destroyed.

For people are slaves of anything that controls them"

[and there, it might be noted that this is true for the con man AND his marks,

where the con man is controlled by his unbridled greed and lust and his marks

are controlled by the con man]

Truly, WHO does Peter sound like he's talking about... almost as if these were prophetic words from God.

Don't Be Deceived

So, the man who wants to criminalize churches for providing sanctuary to oppressed people - thereby oppressing those churches for practicing their human rights/religious views... and the man (and his followers) who were demanding a Bishop apologize or be fired for following HER religious views... THAT man wants to "criminalize" "anti-Christian actions..."

Understand this: He absolutely does NOT want to stand with Christians and religious liberties... he wants to make ONE particular flavor of ONE particular religion protected, whilst he attacks others. He's wanting to use and abuse you to harm and oppress others.

I'm all for believing in religious liberties (as long as that human religious tradition isn't causing harm to others), but if someone is telling you they want to protect only YOUR religious liberty, that man is a con man out for your money, your support and your loyalty as he denies religious liberty/human rights to others.

Don't be a victim of a conman. Especially when that conman drapes himself in your particular religion but who is also an established vulgar sexual predator and a corrupt felon.

Don't be deceived, God will not be mocked.

I'm so saddened that so many conservative Christians have been deceived by such a corrupt idiot.

Let America Be America Again

Let America be America again.
Let it be the dream it used to be.
Let it be the pioneer on the plain
Seeking a home where he himself is free.

(America never was America to me.)

Let America be the dream the dreamers dreamed—
Let it be that great strong land of love
Where never kings connive nor tyrants scheme
That any man be crushed by one above.

(It never was America to me.)

O, let my land be a land where Liberty
Is crowned with no false patriotic wreath,
But opportunity is real, and life is free,
Equality is in the air we breathe.

(There’s never been equality for me,
Nor freedom in this “homeland of the free.”)

Say, who are you that mumbles in the dark?
And who are you that draws your veil across the stars?

I am the poor white, fooled and pushed apart,
I am the Negro bearing slavery’s scars.
I am the red man driven from the land,
I am the immigrant clutching the hope I seek—
And finding only the same old stupid plan
Of dog eat dog, of mighty crush the weak...

O, yes,
I say it plain,
America never was America to me,
And yet I swear this oath—
America will be!

~From Langston Hughes, "Let America Be America Again"

We Will Overcome and We Will NOT Go Back!

The felon-in-chief is now blaming the disabled for this airplane wreck... and all at a time when he literally knows nothing about the wreck. Dear friends, this MUST stop!

My job is to assist those with disabilities get hired by employers who will benefit from their contributions... NOT place them in roles they can't do! That's antithetical to the work we do. DEI is NOT about putting unqualified people into positions they can't do, just to feel good about diversity!

We've been making great progress over the last decade in getting formerly unemployed people into meaningful jobs where they can simply work. We don't want to have it undone by an incompetent jackass speaking from a place of ignorance.

If he's going to be president, we need him to hire actually qualified people to do the jobs they know to do (unlike his cabinet, unfortunately) and then he needs to shut up, get out of the way, and let those qualified do the work.

His words coming from a place of ignorance are/are going to hurt real people. We don't want to - and will NOT - go back to a time before human rights were encouraged for all of us!

Unfortunately, if they were actually hiring competent people, the the president and most of his staff would be removed. All the talk about meritocracy, but it wasn't one of the many qualified black military leaders in actual leadership positions that was hired to run the military, it was a low grade news "personality" that got the position because he was a white man and a Trump loyalist!

This is not a meritocracy. It's an oligarchy, a party run by a delusional wannabe strong man and his sycophants.

All My Favorite People are Broken

My church, Jeff St, just had another of our All Music Sundays. In this very trying week, it was a delicious, sweet balm for the soul of those concerned about peace and justice and siding with the poor and marginalized.

Here are the lyrics (from the band, Over the Rhine) for this song, in part:

All my favorite people are broken

Believe me, my heart should know

Some prayers are better left unspoken

I just want to hold you and let the rest go

All my friends are part saint and part sinner

We lean on each other, try to rise above

We are not afraid to admit we are all still beginners

We are all late bloomers when it comes to love

All my favorite people are broken

Believe me, my heart should know

Awful believers, skeptical dreamers, step forward

You can stay right here, you don't have to go

Is each wound you've received just a burdensome gift

It gets so hard to lift yourself up off the ground

But the poet says we must praise a mutilated world

We're all working the graveyard shift

You might as well sing along

Cause all my favorite people are broken

Believe me, my heart should know

As for your tender heart, this world's going to rip it wide open,

It ain't gonna be pretty, but you're not alone...

Bend the Curve, from Jeff St Music Sunday

A wonderful song by Gabe Dixon, performed here by Kate, Roger, Dan, Donna and David...

A lot of people just tryin' to breathe
Others, hesitating, try to decide
I don't wanna be caught asleep
The world's wakin' if you open your eyes
Everybody's got a hand on the wheel
Everybody's got a hand in the sky
The arc of the moral universe
Needs us to point it just right

So bend the curve
Bend it down to the ground
Bend it down toward justice
What we all deserve
Bend the curve
Bend it down to the ground
Bend it down for freedom
Let's get to work

Bend the curvе
Bend the curve

This land is our land
Why'rе we letting it burn to ashes?
This sea is our life
Don't let it go sleepin' with the fishes
This world is talking to us
Are we gonna have sense to listen?
Might have start making a fuss
Plant a seed and come to fruition

Bend the curve
Bend it down to the ground
Take it down to the Earth
'Cause she needs us now
Bend the curve
Bend it down for science
You know, it's just common sense
For what's going 'round

Bend the curve
Bend the curve
Bend the curve
Bend the curve

All right

There's people workin' dawn to dusk
But they can't trust that it's enough
To have a decent life
There's people in an ivory tower
Clingin' to power, scared of the hour
When we unify
And sanctify
Just one big ball
Just one big life

Bend the curve...

Immigration, Again

 

A conservative who has read my writings (Bubba) recently mistakenly opined...

Dan has essentially argued that the government establishment has made illegal immigration such an enormous problem that it is economically unfeasible to fix it -- and he supports those who created the problem and opposes those who would try to fix it!

1. This is not what I've argued. Period.

2. Because I do not think that criminalizing moving from one place to another place is just or rational or moral lawmaking. There is nothing inherently criminal, wrong or harmful from a person or family moving from point A to point B. Reasonable people certainly would agree (I'm guessing) when it comes to moving from Ohio to Georgia... WHY would that be criminal? No one is being harmed.

In short: Making laws criminalizing immigration are inherently irrational and unjust. It's a made-up crime, not one based upon preventing harm. For those of us who believe in human rights, humans have a right of self-determination, including where we live.

2a. Of course, it goes without saying that criminal types who happen to be immigrants cause harm, just as criminal types who happen to be citizens cause harm. A rapist or a murderer is the exception to the citizenry, just as they are (even moreso) to immigrants. Rational adults don't penalize all citizens because some tiny portion are criminals. The same is true for immigrants. Rationally, morally speaking.

3. Having said that, I am not at all opposed to managing moving from one place to another. For instance, if Phoenix, AZ because of its lack of water, can only accommodate 100,000 people (for instance, and just making up the numbers), then it makes some rational sense to manage the population. But making it criminal? No, of course, not.

4. We further have the problem that some places are unsafe places to be... sometimes for individuals or sometimes for the whole population. If Haiti was destroyed by a hurricane and was temporarily unfit for a large human population...

...if being a woman or LGBTQ person were criminalized or had human rights deprived and were at risk for prison or worse in Uganda, for instance...

...if the gangs in a certain nation or city were so dangerous that you had a greater chance of dying young... or your children had a greater chance of rape...

IF it is inherently unsafe or unhealthy in some locations, then rational, moral people will seek to move some place safer. Any of us would likely want to move some place safer if our family was at risk of imprisonment, starvation, death or oppression. Of course, this is a human rights and rational position to take. My Trabue family is alive and well today in the US because the lives of Trabues were threatened in France by Catholics and we're only alive because another nation let us in.

4a. Thus, even moreso than simple immigration, refugees escaping threats at home should be accommodated. There is righteous international law that the US is signed on to that obliges us to that much. Again, there is nothing inherently harmful or immoral in a refugee escaping a threat to find a safer place to live.

https://www.unhcr.org/sites/default/files/legacy-pdf/4ec262df9.pdf

And WHO should get to make that decision of when and where to move? Some gov't flunkee or the person who is at risk? The person at risk, of course, from a human rights, self-determination point of view.

Where am I mistaken so far?

So, back to Bubba's false claim:

Dan has essentially argued that the government establishment has made illegal immigration such an enormous problem that it is economically unfeasible to fix it -- and he supports those who created the problem and opposes those who would try to fix it!

5. Thus, those who have welcomed and accepted refugees and immigrants are not to blame in any of this. They are just doing what is rational, moral, just and in support of human rights (and in support of abundantly consistent teachings from both Jewish and Christian traditions as found in the Bible, for what that's worth.)

6. The "problems" of immigration are more rightly laid at the feet of...

6a. Unjust or failed gov'ts elsewhere that fail to promote and protect human rights (resulting in people at risk seeking to escape danger, and doing so rationally)

6b. Bad actors/abusive people in failed gov'ts that are abusing/causing harm to innocent civilians in their lands.

6c. Sometimes, weather and land conditions and land policies that cause drought, famine or environmental catastrophes. These are sometimes out of our control and sometimes a result of poor policies/land planning and sometimes both (as in climate change-related "disasters" that could be prevented or eased if we had more responsible climate-related policies).

6d. Nations that implement policies that result in harm - whether we're talking anthropogenic climate change or extractive/colonial type policies that have contributed to poorer nations being made even poorer/being taken advantage of.

6e. Other nations having improper procedures and policies for dealing with the predictable and reasonable move of innocent people from one place to another place which, again, is a basic human right. Because, why wouldn't it be?

That is the question for apparently a majority of the US to consider: On what rational, moral basis would we criminalize people exercising self-determination... especially when we're talking about saving or improving their own lives or the lives of their loved ones?

So, Bubba, where the "gov't establishment" has failed in the US (and this is both GOP and Democrat) is in having just, reasonable immigration policies and a reasonable way to accommodate immigrants and refugees.

It's NOT the fault of those who merely support others moving from point A to point B, NOR is it the fault of those who merely want to escape to someplace safe and with sufficient resources so that they can work and feed their families.

Finally, what's in the "best interests" of "our country" matter less to me than what is right, reasonable, supportive of human rights and what is in the best interest of the world. And that's because what is in the best interests of humanity writ large IS in the best interests of our country.

Seems to me.

Where am I mistaken?

While I'm at it, in the same conversation, another conservative (Marshal) attempted to mock me, saying...

what he calls the "self-determination" of foreigners

It's not like I made up the crazy notion of "self-determination." It's a basic building block of universally recognized human rights.

And as to the "harm done to our economy" theory (that both Marshal and Bubba were advocating), it just doesn't hold up. Are YOU personally harmed when a family from Georgia moves to Texas? Of course, not. And the data shows that, while there are SOME costs associated with our lack of rational immigration policies (from both GOP and DNC), there are also, of course, huge benefits associated with welcoming immigrants. Nebraska is BEGGING to have some workers - including immigrant workers... as are other places. The economic costs are overwhelmed by the economic benefits and WAY overwhelmed by the human rights benefits.

This is supported by many studies and experts. Here is the conclusion found by the crazy leftists at the George W Bush Center...

https://www.bushcenter.org/catalyst/north-american-century/benefits-of-immigration-outweigh-costs

We'll Keep On Working

We can keep loving
keep helping those needing help
keep welcoming those who are excluded
keep being allies with the oppressed
keep loving the earth
keep siding with the marginalized
keep protesting
keep doing the right, reasonable and helpful
keep finding joy and energy and support in the beloved community

We can keep working

and there ain't no one -
no threats, no mocking, no attacks, no laws... there ain't NO ONE -

can take that away.

An Unnecessary Illusion

The snow covering and ice sprinkling

gave the illusion of a new world

fresh, undisturbed, untouched and unpolluted.

This was only an illusion, of course.

The pavement and dirt and grime

still lay there beneath the snow

the plastic and cans and detritus still lined the creek bed,

even though it was covered and made beautiful by the ice.

An illusion, but a pleasant one, just the same.

Taken the right way, it gives us license to imagine a better world

a more clean, pure, delightful and beautiful world.

At its very best, it might even inspire us to take up (or continue)

the struggle for a better day and a better world

one improved by our choices and actions

rather than being made worse.

 

Jimmy Carter, the Best Man to Ever be President

 

So very thankful for the lives, wisdom and grace of Jimmy and Rosayln Carter...

 

“A strong nation, like a strong person, can afford to be gentle, firm, thoughtful, and restrained. It can afford to extend a helping hand to others. It is a weak nation, like a weak person, that must behave with bluster and boasting and rashness and other signs of insecurity.”

“War may sometimes be a necessary evil. But no matter how necessary, it is always an evil, never a good. We will not learn to live together in peace by killing each other's children.”

“America did not invent human rights. In a very real sense… human rights invented America.”

“We have become not a melting pot but a beautiful mosaic. Different people, different beliefs, different yearnings, different hopes, different dreams.”

“Failure is a reality; we all fail at times, and it's painful when we do. But it's better to fail while striving for something wonderful, challenging, adventurous, and uncertain than to say, " I don't want to try because I may not succeed completely.”

"the main thing I want to impress on the listeners today is just to use every influence you have to encourage up more attention being paid by banks and by city governments and by state governments and by the federal government to making housing available for everybody, decent housing."