tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7923725288901074422.post8771956674658587423..comments2024-03-28T00:32:20.743-07:00Comments on Through These Woods: On Reading the Bible...Dan Trabuehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14303597141397042669noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7923725288901074422.post-81070183408761482832010-01-01T14:36:06.780-08:002010-01-01T14:36:06.780-08:00Sorry, Alan. Don't read Twighlight books and ...Sorry, Alan. Don't read Twighlight books and I also don't think you could keep up with the average ten-year old girl. I also don't waste too much time being insulted by the likes of such as you, who would rather snark than actually debate or discuss. And as far as understanding goes, yours is suspect if you truly think your lifestyle is in any way blessed, justified or tolerated by God. I still pray for you and your enablers (Dan) and hope the best for you. Until then, you are what you are is so many ways and your insults don't surprise or intimidate in any way. I can deal with such back and forth quite easily. Take your best shot.Marshall Arthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01054268632726520871noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7923725288901074422.post-42550439505935847112009-12-12T07:32:31.234-08:002009-12-12T07:32:31.234-08:00Actually MA, in spite of your blathering on, I don...Actually MA, in spite of your blathering on, I don't make Scripture complicated. I believe that attempting to know the mind of God through his Word while we see through sin-darkened lenses is already complicated enough. You may have confidence in your perfection to perfectly understand Scripture, but I don't have any confidence in your ability to understand ... well ... anything at all, actually. Frankly, I'm amazed any time you leave a comment that you're able to string a few letters together to form words.<br><br>Unlike you, who believes that Scripture is simply a Dick and Jane first grade primer, I agree with our historical confessions which say:<br><br>"All things in Scripture are not alike plain in themselves, nor alike clear unto all; yet those things which are necessary to be known, believed, and observed, for salvation, are so clearly propounded and opened in some place of Scripture or other, that not only the learned, but the unlearned, in a due use of the ordinary means, may attain unto a sufficient understanding of them."<br><br>From the Westminster Confession of Faith.<br><br>When it comes to traditional, orthodox understandings of the Christian faith, I hope you'll understand, MA if I take the Westminster Confession of Faith more seriously than your pathetic yapping.<br><br>BTW, "venom from his dark heart" was a particularly hilariously melodramatic turn of phrase. I think however, that you should lay off the Twilight books for a while. You're starting to write like a 10 year old girl.Alanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16274395216929104919noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7923725288901074422.post-25666057718966936132009-12-11T22:06:03.453-08:002009-12-11T22:06:03.453-08:00He never said that, did He? No, of course not. T...He never said that, did He? No, of course not. There is not even an approximation of such a statement. This is just something you like to say to demonize the position we take in interpreting clearly stated presentations of events in the Bible. Yet, that innocents, by the definition you choose to use in these discussions, might suffer the consequences of the sins of their fathers and those consequences might be physical death, is not the same as being held responsible for those sins. It is not the same as sharing in the guilt of the father having committed those sins. And again, I would suggest to you that in Ezekiel it is not a physical death being described. <br><br>So there are two different things being discussed in the passages you link together. Punishment can take many forms. Collateral damage, as in my example of the victim of a drunk driver, isn't exactly a reward. If a man leads a sinful life, his children can indeed pay a price for that sinfulness and it happens every day. Are they not enduring a punishment without being guilty of the father's sin?<br><br>Furthermore, you pick and choose just what you mean by "literal". In one case it's the message, in another the words used in the message. Whatever fits your socialist position is the definition you use. <br><br>And BTW, Alan hopes to make Scripture just complicated enough to justify his twisted beliefs. Scripture IS rather simple to understand because it was intended for everyone and not just psuedo-scholars of the 20th century liberal variety. The venom from his dark heart does not poison me. Let him be himself since we all know already the quality of character.Marshall Arthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01054268632726520871noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7923725288901074422.post-12440285729578867062009-12-11T04:08:09.075-08:002009-12-11T04:08:09.075-08:00Exodus 34 (God speaking about God's Self):&quo...Exodus 34 (God speaking about God's Self):<br><br><i>"The LORD, the LORD, a merciful and gracious God, slow to anger and rich in kindness and fidelity, continuing his kindness for a thousand generations, and forgiving wickedness and crime and sin; <br><br><b>yet not declaring the guilty guiltless, but punishing children and grandchildren to the third and fourth generation for their fathers' wickedness</b>!"</i> [NAB]<br><br>PUNISHING children for their father's wickedness, in the NAB. "Visiting the iniquity of fathers on the children" in the NASB and KJV.<br><br>"God punishes the children and their children for the sin of the fathers" in the NIV.<br><br>Taken literally, this says that God punishes the children for their fathers' sins. You're suggesting we ought not take it literally?<br><br>Then you and I agree.<br><br>This is my whole point. Some passages are obviously not to be taken literally. Why? Well, one reason would be when they conflict with other, more clear passages.<br><br>You are suggesting that this ought to be read non-literally - you are interpreting it to mean something other than the literal words suggest. Good for you. You are correct to do so, I'd suggest.<br><br>Now, on what possible basis would you choose to interpret "God said, 'kill innocents'" literally? And if you and I both agree not to take this passage literally, why do you give so much grief when I do the same thing as you for another passage?Dan Trabuehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14303597141397042669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7923725288901074422.post-81455385054893135062009-12-10T15:02:40.181-08:002009-12-10T15:02:40.181-08:00This really doesn't help your argument for how...This really doesn't help your argument for how you interpret anything. These three areas don't really connect at all, as I explained at my blog when you raised this issue. Ex.34 has only two rational explanations: Either it speaks of the consequences borne by offspring of a sinner, at which you hint, or, that the sinful practice gets passed along to the next generations and God continues to punish until correction takes place. I would suggest the first is most likely as it still happens all the time, and certainly did when God punished the whole of Israel for transgressions of MOST of the people (surely not all were disobedient, just as not even the babes of Sodom could have been "guilty" of the sins of their fathers.)<br><br>Ezekiel then gets more specific in that it states explicitly that one who commits the sin will die, but not the descendants if they are not likewise involved in committing that sin. <br><br>But then, the story of the blind man has nothing whatever to do with either Ex or Ez as it is speaking to the reason a man might suffer from blindness when his parents had not sinned at all.<br><br>Nice try, though.Marshall Arthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01054268632726520871noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7923725288901074422.post-20954864626732996282009-12-09T06:52:36.087-08:002009-12-09T06:52:36.087-08:00We can all learn, I reckon. It just takes some of ...We can all learn, I reckon. It just takes some of us longer than others...<br><br>Thanks, Alan.Dan Trabuehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14303597141397042669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7923725288901074422.post-29123844441150916922009-12-09T06:44:02.312-08:002009-12-09T06:44:02.312-08:00See, Dan, I'm learning. :)See, Dan, I'm learning. :)Alanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16274395216929104919noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7923725288901074422.post-22290071334968185742009-12-09T06:04:37.814-08:002009-12-09T06:04:37.814-08:00Edwin said...its exodus 20:4 by the way not Exodus...Edwin said...<br><br><i>its exodus 20:4 by the way not Exodus 34.</i><br><br>ahem...<br><br><i>"Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children and their children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation."</i><br><br>Exodus 34:7<br><br>You're welcome.<br><br>Edwin also said...<br><br><i>The specific sin is bowing down to idles [idols, I think he means]<br><br>Seems pretty concrete to me</i><br><br>And again, ahem...<br><br>Exodus 34, in context:<br><br><i>So Moses chiseled out two stone tablets like the first ones and went up Mount Sinai early in the morning, as the LORD had commanded him; and he carried the two stone tablets in his hands. <br><br>Then the LORD came down in the cloud and stood there with him and proclaimed his name, the LORD. And he passed in front of Moses, proclaiming, "The LORD, the LORD, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness, maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness, rebellion and sin. <br><br>Yet [God] does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children and their children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation."</i><br><br>I believe, in context, that passage is speaking of obeying God's rules in general. Not specifically idols. Although I'm not sure how that would change my point - I don't believe it does.<br><br>And it IS obscure/unclear because of how unreasonable it appears. God will punish a great grandchild because of an ancestor's sin?? Really??<br><br>Is that what you think, Edwin? It IS what it literally says, but do you believe that literally God punishes the descendants of sinners for sins they (the descendants) did not commit?<br><br>No, I'm not reinterpreting the ten commandments. I'm doing Bible study. In studying the Bible, in this case, we see (at least) two verses which seem to contradict each other. So, a serious student of the Bible has to ask, "What does this mean? DOES God punish people for others' sins - as Exodus 34 clearly literally says - or does God NOT do so - as the Ezekiel passage clearly literally says.<br><br>One of these is not literally correct, Edwin. Which one do you reject/reinterpret?Dan Trabuehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14303597141397042669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7923725288901074422.post-70120378882479914712009-12-09T03:32:30.791-08:002009-12-09T03:32:30.791-08:00Hey Rob! Always good to hear from you.Hey Rob! Always good to hear from you.Dan Trabuehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14303597141397042669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7923725288901074422.post-34699012637972874052009-12-08T12:54:21.405-08:002009-12-08T12:54:21.405-08:00As always with this blog- a light has come on insi...As always with this blog- a light has come on inside my mind. Thanks Dan!<br><br>I do think it may be a mistake to view God's interaction with us as anyhting more complicated than the rules for tic-tac-toe. The "word" often seems to get in the way of the "voice" within. That may make me a lazy thinker, or maybe a more nimble one. I don't know.Rob Toneyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02152366108636124055noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7923725288901074422.post-37714602040530847022009-12-08T11:31:00.803-08:002009-12-08T11:31:00.803-08:00its exodus 20:4 by the way not Exodus 34.and it is...its exodus 20:4 by the way not Exodus 34.<br><br>and it is repeated back to God by Moses in Numbers 4:18<br><br>The specific sin is bowing down to idles <br><br><br>Seems pretty concrete to me<br><br><br>Ezekiel 18, says a man will be spared <b>death in his sins</b> if he does not worship idles like his father did. It doesn't say the son will not have to deal with punishment on earth for his fathers sin.<br><br>Not that I'm going to get drawn into a really long and pointless debate with you on this, but it is really funny that you are now re-interpreting the 10 commandments.Edwin Droodhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07734335669101499685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7923725288901074422.post-81463515989089089162009-12-08T08:02:59.975-08:002009-12-08T08:02:59.975-08:00That *was* nice compared to what I really think. ...That *was* nice compared to what I really think. ;)Alanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16274395216929104919noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7923725288901074422.post-91565009976084156692009-12-08T07:13:11.630-08:002009-12-08T07:13:11.630-08:00Please, Alan, as a favor to my mom, if you can'...Please, Alan, as a favor to my mom, if you can't say something nice about them, don't say anything at all about them.<br><br>Thank you for the support, nonetheless. Merry Christmas!Dan Trabuehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14303597141397042669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7923725288901074422.post-41932525361824571092009-12-08T07:08:13.972-08:002009-12-08T07:08:13.972-08:00I'm shocked but glad to see the rage-o-philes ...I'm shocked but glad to see the rage-o-philes haven't jumped all over this.<br><br>Maybe the spirit of the holiday season has made their hearts grow two sizes plus one. :)<br><br>In any event, it is our Judeo-Christian heritage to do what you're showing in this blog post. Scripture isn't a problem to be solved, it's God's Word that we're meant to engage with.<br><br>But anything more difficult than the rules for tic-tac-toe is likely too complicated for some to figure out. They want simple, easy to digest McNuggets of Gody sounding wisdom fed to them ... the bloodier the better.Alanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16274395216929104919noreply@blogger.com