tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7923725288901074422.post8120795609603601294..comments2024-03-28T00:32:20.743-07:00Comments on Through These Woods: Church Flag FlyingDan Trabuehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14303597141397042669noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7923725288901074422.post-64287951208826917872013-07-10T07:33:44.802-07:002013-07-10T07:33:44.802-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Alanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16274395216929104919noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7923725288901074422.post-22015621887494328372013-07-10T07:33:40.984-07:002013-07-10T07:33:40.984-07:00Bubba doesn't, apparently, know the difference...Bubba doesn't, apparently, know the difference between drawing conclusions from what someone writes and speculating about possible rationale for a position he doesn't hold.<br /><br />Typical.<br /><br />I don't have to speculate about anything to see the hypocrisy ... its written in every line he writes.Alanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16274395216929104919noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7923725288901074422.post-32097210488677880242013-07-09T20:58:11.885-07:002013-07-09T20:58:11.885-07:00Except by some here, there really is no difficulty...Except by some here, there really is no difficulty in determining when I do or do not "speculate" about people I don't know. Generally, I will indicate by saying something along the lines of, "correct me if I'm wrong", or "don't quote me here", or "I'm speculating". <br /><br />Anyhow, I've never run into anyone who felt it was wrong NOT to fly the US flag in the sanctuary. Thus, I would have to speculate as to why such a person might feel that way. But I don't want to.Marshal Arthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01054268632726520871noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7923725288901074422.post-54978187051294319092013-07-09T15:44:04.292-07:002013-07-09T15:44:04.292-07:00You know, Alan, if you're mocking me for drawi...You know, Alan, if you're mocking me for drawing conclusions from what others write, perhaps you shouldn't simultaneously mock me <b>BY</b> drawing conclusions from what <b>I</b> write.<br /><br />Irony, indeed.Bubbanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7923725288901074422.post-89922426671190979722013-07-09T13:51:30.211-07:002013-07-09T13:51:30.211-07:00"You're asking Marshall to speculate abou..."You're asking Marshall to speculate about people he may not know, to theorize about the possible rationale for a position he evidently doesn't hold."<br /><br />ROFL. <br /><br />Bubba writes that sentence almost as if speculating about people he doesn't know isn't one of his and (and MA's) all-time favorite hobbies!<br /><br />Oh, the irony.Alanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16274395216929104919noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7923725288901074422.post-45656591573884726072013-07-09T09:51:41.791-07:002013-07-09T09:51:41.791-07:00Not upset, Geoffrey, just engaging in conversation...Not upset, Geoffrey, just engaging in conversation for the fun of it. Or trying to.Dan Trabuehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14303597141397042669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7923725288901074422.post-3685560548213909542013-07-09T09:37:53.963-07:002013-07-09T09:37:53.963-07:00On point, Dan, had I encountered such a person say...On point, Dan, had I encountered such a person saying such a thing, I probably would have shrugged and said, "OK".<br /><br />That's what adiaphora are all about. Couldn't care less. The guy wants to get "het up" about it, well, that's fine. Why should I let my panties get in a bunch because of some guy's hang-up? Just smile and carry on.<br />Geoffrey Kruse-Saffordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11242660591954094499noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7923725288901074422.post-14740576607530971562013-07-09T09:07:10.791-07:002013-07-09T09:07:10.791-07:00Dan, you're repeatedly attributing to "ou...Dan, you're repeatedly attributing to "our side" the word "stoopid" -- three times in this thread, twice in your last comment alone -- and I don't use that word, and I don't find it being used in the comment thread to which you link.<br /><br />"<i>...I tend to say things like 'It sounds like you're saying... is that what you mean?' whereas they/you all tend to say, 'Huh! You're saying X and that's STOOPID!'</i>"<br /><br />Even now, when you're trying to demonstrate how cautious you are not to misquote people, you do not summarize our comments in a way that could be considered accurate and charitable.<br /><br />It's a minor thing, a single (misspelled) word, but you shouldn't use it if you're really concerned about accuracy -- and you shouldn't need to misquote us if we were so awful in our misuse of words.Bubbanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7923725288901074422.post-50134305395666013672013-07-09T08:41:32.794-07:002013-07-09T08:41:32.794-07:00Bubba...
There you write, "What I don’t get ...Bubba...<br /><br /><i>There you write, "What I don’t get is the whole, '…but I wouldn’t want to go to a church that didn’t…'," but you don't seem to be quoting anyone else in the thread.<br /><br />The closest you get is Dean Allen's comment, "Frankly, I would not want to attend any church that had a problem with the US flag."</i><br /><br />My apologies for misquoting the fella, I was working from memory.<br /><br />However, given that the POINT of the post was "Is it good to fly a flag in church - yes or no?" and then to be met with "I wouldn't attend a church that had a problem with the US flag..." I hope you can see that this could at least reasonably implied.<br /><br />Again, though, IF you all would answer direct questions directly, then a lot of these sorts of potential disagreements could be cleared up. If Dean would have answered, "I am not saying I think it's wrong to not fly a flag, but I do have a problem with people who actively dislike the US flag..." then that would have cleared it up. Conversely, if he MEANT, "if you don't fly the flag, then you have a problem with it and I have a problem with that...," then my follow up questions would stand - On what basis do you think it's wrong to not fly a flag? - and answering that could help lead to some clarity.<br /><br />You and your comrades seem to often ignore direct answers to reasonable questions and that is part of the problem here, but that is an aside.<br /><br />Can you demonstrate a bit of rationality now and agree that, reading what I actually wrote there and then concluding, "So, you're saying if it's not in the Bible it's wrong and that's STOOPID!" is a ridiculous conclusion?<br /><br />Bubba...<br /><br /><i>Even if you had a good record of summarizing others' views -- and you don't...</i><br /><br />Do you recognize the irony of this? Do you realize that, at a guess, fully 75% of the conclusions your "side" make about my words are wrong? And that additionally, I tend to say things like "It sounds like you're saying... is that what you mean?" whereas they/you all tend to say, "Huh! You're saying X and that's STOOPID!"<br /><br />Perhaps the pot should not refer to the kettle as black...?Dan Trabuehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14303597141397042669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7923725288901074422.post-89190467405031502312013-07-09T08:11:31.102-07:002013-07-09T08:11:31.102-07:00I thought you were referencing another conversatio...I thought you were referencing another conversation because I don't see anyone there claiming "he wouldn't attend a church that didn't fly a flag in its sanctuary."<br /><br />There you write, "What I don’t get is the whole, '…but I wouldn’t want to go to a church that didn’t…'," but you don't seem to be quoting anyone else in the thread.<br /><br />The closest you get is Dean Allen's comment, "Frankly, I would not want to attend any church that had a problem with the US flag."<br /><br />But, from what I've read in that thread, I don't think one can assume that the man believes that EVERY sanctuary that doesn't have an American flag "has a problem" with the flag. Assuming he thinks that is unjustified and uncharitable.<br /><br />Before, John Barron pointed to things like groupthink, and you ignored all that to insist that he believes in some vast global conspiracy. Here, you're putting the worst possible spin on an opponent's stated position.<br /><br />"In the recent past, I have not listed the blogs in question because the reports were accurate and the people involved didn't matter, it was the TOPIC I was discussing, not the people."<br /><br />1. Even if you had a good record of summarizing others' views -- and you don't -- it's arrogant to proclaim that your reports are so accurate that, as a rule, your readers don't need to be given easy access to see for themselves.<br /><br />2. When, as you did in the last conversation, you invoke tinfoil hats, it's outrageous to insist that you're focusing on topics rather than people.<br /><br />Even here, in questioning the rationality and the morality of the other people's positions, it's hard not to conclude that you're also not calling into question the rationality and morality of the people themselves.Bubbanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7923725288901074422.post-73851401732329272122013-07-09T07:51:49.847-07:002013-07-09T07:51:49.847-07:00Bubba...
"There"? Where? You don't ...Bubba...<br /><br /><i>"There"? Where? You don't say, and so we must trust that your description of their positions is fair and accurate, knowing that you accuse people of "gossip" when they write about you elsewhere.<br /></i><br /><br />I refer you to the VERY FIRST SENTENCE of this post, in which I link to the blog in question.<br /><br />In the recent past, I have not listed the blogs in question because the reports were accurate and the people involved didn't matter, it was the TOPIC I was discussing, not the people. Thus, TO AVOID gossip, I treated JUST the topic. But since you all complained, I have included the source this time.<br /><br />As to your off topic comments about John and Glenn, their comments STRONGLY implied what I summarized. But to be sure, I REPEATEDLy asked them for clarification and repeatedly they, like you, chose to ignore direct questions and live on with innuendo and vague demonizations and unsupported accusations.<br /><br />If you all would simply directly answer the questions being asked of you, you could resolve this quite easily, as often as not.<br /><br />Anyway, failing to get any answers to that question there, I asked it here to see if anyone<br /><br />1. Believes that it's wrong to NOT fly a flag and<br /><br />2. Would answer why they think it's wrong<br /><br />If you don't believe it's wrong, then this is not directed to you.<br /><br />So, perhaps this is not a problem. Do you agree with me, Bubba, that it's pretty silly to actively think it's WRONG to not fly a flag in church, should anyone believe such a thing? Fine, then we're in agreement.<br /><br />Move on.Dan Trabuehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14303597141397042669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7923725288901074422.post-80548410543109389822013-07-09T07:37:32.370-07:002013-07-09T07:37:32.370-07:00I'm guessing their strawman responses are qual...I'm guessing their strawman responses are qualitatively quite different from your recent efforts to discredit John Barron and Glenn Chatfield by attributing to them lunatic beliefs that their actual writing doesn't support.<br /><br />I'm having to guess because, for the second time in as many blog entries, you're railing about people's supposedly irrational beliefs without initially linking to the conservation in question.<br /><br />"I DID ask him and the others there who hinted at the same thing."<br /><br />"There"? Where? You don't say, and so we must trust that your description of their positions is fair and accurate, knowing that you accuse people of "gossip" when they write about you elsewhere.<br /><br />But, okay, you asked them, and you're not satisfied with their answers.<br /><br />Why go about asking other people about these fellas' beliefs? Why do so when Marshall may not know them, isn't a party to the conversation, and evidently doesn't hold the same position?<br /><br />What's the point?<br /><br />When it became clear that you weren't interested in complete candor about your theological beliefs, I resigned myself to the fact that your beliefs are unknowable to a significant degree. It never occurred to me to ask random people what Dan Trabue believes. Why would it? Their speculations would never serve as an adequate substitute for your own explanations.Bubbanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7923725288901074422.post-91030353071408638772013-07-09T07:06:57.750-07:002013-07-09T07:06:57.750-07:00I DID ask him and the others there who hinted at t...I DID ask him and the others there who hinted at the same thing.<br /><br />Their response?<br /><br />The typical strawman response...<br /><br />"What? You want to say if it's not in the bible then it's wrong??!! Har har har! what a moron! That's really stoopid!"<br /><br />That is, rather than responding to the reasonable questions asked, they respond with logical fallacies, personal attacks and nonsensical blather. As is too often the case at least on these internets.Dan Trabuehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14303597141397042669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7923725288901074422.post-70797702233452320862013-07-09T06:43:58.747-07:002013-07-09T06:43:58.747-07:00Dan, why not ask "the fella" who actuall...Dan, why not ask "the fella" who actually said he wouldn't attend a church that didn't fly his nation's flag?<br /><br />You're asking Marshall to speculate about people he may not know, to theorize about the possible rationale for a position he evidently doesn't hold.Bubbanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7923725288901074422.post-77430779159970210782013-07-09T05:39:40.161-07:002013-07-09T05:39:40.161-07:00You miss my point, Marshall. You have no problem w...You miss my point, Marshall. You have no problem with it, either way, that's fine and rational.<br /><br />My question, though, was WHY would some people have a problem with NOT flying the flag? I understand the argument against flying flags, but I don't see much in the way of compelling argument to suggest that NOT flying a flag is somehow wrong.<br /><br />Do you have any thoughts as to why some might consider it wrong NOT to fly a flag?Dan Trabuehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14303597141397042669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7923725288901074422.post-88293281864467639812013-07-08T05:01:30.024-07:002013-07-08T05:01:30.024-07:00I don't see how it is "irrational" f...I don't see how it is "irrational" for those who feel theirs is a "nation under God" to have an American flag in the sanctuary. I don't see as rational the notion that anyone would necessarily regard a flag as an idol to be worshiped or in any way problematic. Do anabaptists struggle often with such things? I know why <i>I</i> go to church and Who it is I worship once there. Is this in question for you? <br /><br />This is really a non-issue and I have no problem with it either way. It's a simple gesture to have a flag, but I don't need one to give thanks to God for His blessings upon my country or to ask Him to continue doing so, or forgive it for transgressions. Marshal Arthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01054268632726520871noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7923725288901074422.post-33602104303185085622013-07-07T14:20:28.604-07:002013-07-07T14:20:28.604-07:00It actually began after American involvement in WW...It actually began after American involvement in WWI.<br /><br />I remember the issue being discussed when I was in seminary, thinking, "This is a big deal?" Fly it, don't fly it - there are good reasons for both positions and no reason at all to get upset one way or another.Geoffrey Kruse-Saffordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11242660591954094499noreply@blogger.com