tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7923725288901074422.post8075646498459517753..comments2024-03-28T00:32:20.743-07:00Comments on Through These Woods: What Makes Us SmartDan Trabuehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14303597141397042669noreply@blogger.comBlogger73125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7923725288901074422.post-49786621817271866812016-10-08T10:29:41.083-07:002016-10-08T10:29:41.083-07:00Your words quoted accurately, I'm sorry you sa...Your words quoted accurately, I'm sorry you said what you said, but you said it and I quoted it. As for context, unless you're blind it's right in front of you. Every example quote is from this comment thread. <br /><br />Do feel free to be upset at what you said and pretend it's out of context (as if it needs more context than the entire paragraph you said it on) if it helps. <br /><br />Or you could just apologize for making assumptions and move on like most people would. Craighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17149415942585847184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7923725288901074422.post-65543370539294878262016-10-07T21:36:53.906-07:002016-10-07T21:36:53.906-07:00You can get words to say all sorts of things if yo...You can get words to say all sorts of things if you remove them from context, ignore what else was said, squint your eyes, close your mind and say, "He meant X, even though the context makes it clear that he wasn't saying X."Dan Trabuehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14303597141397042669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7923725288901074422.post-35342151430677380492016-10-07T17:57:53.689-07:002016-10-07T17:57:53.689-07:00One last. I've never said "Dan, you'...One last. I've never said "Dan, you've said...", I've actually quoted your own words, if you really want to argue that you didn't say the quotes,ok...Craighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17149415942585847184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7923725288901074422.post-53221439060832036342016-10-07T17:56:04.279-07:002016-10-07T17:56:04.279-07:00That would make all sorts of sense if I hadn't...That would make all sorts of sense if I hadn't quoted you making a statement, not asking a question. <br /><br />I guess that's one more assumption. The assumption that others can understand you in the absence of the proper punctuation. <br /><br />Admitting mistakes is hard, isn't it. <br /><br />Last time, if you simply want to contradict your quoted, have at it. <br /><br />If you want to have a serious discussion about, say, tax policy that's great too. Craighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17149415942585847184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7923725288901074422.post-88871677457007039682016-10-07T15:11:19.544-07:002016-10-07T15:11:19.544-07:00re, Craig... "All I can say is that your own ...re, Craig... "All I can say is that your own words contradict you"<br /><br />In case I wasn't clear, let me give an example. You read my words and conclude<br /><br />1. That I only listen to blacks who agree with me.<br /><br />for instance. In reality, I never said that, nor did I suggest it. I QUESTIONED whether or not you needed to heed the conservative Autopsy suggestion to avoid only listening to those who agree with you. That is a concern that many conservatives have about other conservatives. Given that (I think reasonable) concern that many conservative thinkers have, I QUESTIONED if that was what was happening here.<br /><br />A question is not the same as a claim.<br /><br />Thus, if you think I have made this claim, you have misunderstood my words. On nearly every instance of you saying "Dan, you said..." I have not said that. You are misunderstanding. As I have now demonstrated.<br /><br />Hope that helps.Dan Trabuehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14303597141397042669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7923725288901074422.post-10822364163410225012016-10-07T15:07:27.341-07:002016-10-07T15:07:27.341-07:00That you have misread my words and thus, found a c...That you have misread my words and thus, found a contradiction that doesn't exist, is not evidence that my words contradict me.<br /><br />Marshall, I think it's my computer. For some reason, on my home computer, I can't get it to go to marshallart.blogspot.com... it goes to marshallart.blogspot.com/redirect... or something like that and I can't figure out how to get it to not remember to go there. I'm pretty sure it's a memory/refresh thing, but haven't figured out how to fix it. I can still see your blog on my phone and other computers.<br /><br />Technology.Dan Trabuehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14303597141397042669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7923725288901074422.post-79835852726296232652016-10-07T05:00:54.915-07:002016-10-07T05:00:54.915-07:00All I can say is that your own words contradict yo...All I can say is that your own words contradict you, and I see no gain in a conversation with your assumptions about me. Craighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17149415942585847184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7923725288901074422.post-85697318351285450522016-10-07T02:48:20.784-07:002016-10-07T02:48:20.784-07:00"Marshall, your blog appears to be gone... ev...<i>"Marshall, your blog appears to be gone... everything okay? Is that on purpose?"</i><br /><br />It was there a minute ago.<br /><br />Actually, I access your blog through mine, as yours is listed in the "Left Ones" column. Don't know why you're experiencing trouble. Craig just left a post a couple in the last couple of days. Let me know here if you still have issues. Marshal Arthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01054268632726520871noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7923725288901074422.post-12528354872145887232016-10-06T20:19:32.455-07:002016-10-06T20:19:32.455-07:00Assumptions.
1. That I only listen to blacks who ...<i>Assumptions.<br /><br />1. That I only listen to blacks who agree with me.<br />2. That you are accurately summarizing the beliefs of 90 of black Americans.<br /><br />And there we have it once again, one of your claims contradicted by your own words.</i><br /><br />No. We have your understanding of my words being incorrect. Since clearly, literally, I didn't say you only listen to those who agree with you or black folk who agree with you. It didn't happen. Same for all the other understandings of what I've actually said.<br /><br />Just to clarify.Dan Trabuehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14303597141397042669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7923725288901074422.post-34829744806023576382016-10-06T20:17:21.003-07:002016-10-06T20:17:21.003-07:00re: "This should accurately read..."
I...re: "This should accurately read..." <br /><br />It DOES accurately read, in context. In context, what I said was...<br /><br /><i>ndeed, <b>I'm citing CONSERVATIVES</b> who agree that this is a problem.<br /><br />The point was to help you see that it is not viewing all the data to try to blame Obama for what conservative policies have contributed largely to, and that ACCORDING TO CONSERVATIVES.</i><br /><br />So, clearly in context, I was very literally citing conservatives. So, it is literally factually true that what I was saying was "according to conservatives."<br /><br />What I didn't say was "According to ALL conservatives." If I had said that, you might have a case, but clearly, I was not speaking for all conservatives. I've been pretty clear that I'm citing many conservatives. I've given you several names and sources.<br /><br />About your "false assumption" about echo chambers, again, in context, I had ASKED if it was possible that it was the case that you needed to heed the conservative Autopsy report 4th point about not having your opinions wrongly shadowed by only hearing and listening to those who agree with you. I literally did not say, then, in context that this is what you were doing, I was asking you a question IF this is what you were doing, as that might be one explanation for why you don't appear able to understand how many black folk would find your points to be racist sounding.<br /><br />Just to clarify some mistaken understandings you had. Sorry if I was not clear enough.Dan Trabuehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14303597141397042669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7923725288901074422.post-11320174681935442862016-10-06T16:09:17.247-07:002016-10-06T16:09:17.247-07:00It's your call at this point, I really have no...It's your call at this point, I really have nothing to say as I'm not going to defend either Trump or "The Republicans". I've agreed with some things and pushed back against others. So if you have something else of substance, I'll consider it, if not then why not move on?Craighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17149415942585847184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7923725288901074422.post-66660684752958357022016-10-06T15:47:01.589-07:002016-10-06T15:47:01.589-07:00"...about listening only to your echo chamber... "...about listening only to your echo chambers..."<br /><br />Sorry, one last false assumption.Craighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17149415942585847184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7923725288901074422.post-72443985074650646342016-10-06T15:46:35.459-07:002016-10-06T15:46:35.459-07:00"...ACCORDING TO CONSERVATIVES."
This s..."...ACCORDING TO CONSERVATIVES."<br /><br />This should more accurately read,<br /><br />"...ACCORDING TO SOME CONSERVATIVES WHO I MAY OR MAY NOT HAVE TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT OF MISREPRESENTED IN AN ATTEMPT TO BOLSTER MY OTHERWISE LESS THAN CONVINCING OPINIONS..."<br /><br />Clearly, the concept of a political movement which allows for diversity of opinion and views is a bit strange. <br /><br />Craighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17149415942585847184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7923725288901074422.post-37055084254184155892016-10-06T15:43:29.225-07:002016-10-06T15:43:29.225-07:00"Where have I done any of that?"
I'..."Where have I done any of that?"<br /><br />I'm going to take a chance this this time might be different and show you where.<br /><br />"Thus, when people say to black folks, "Why do you all support Obama? Things are worse for your community than they used to be! How does that make sense?! Isn't that foolish of you?!" ...they recognize that such people are too stupid to recognize the reality of what has happened, or that such people are aware of what happened and are hoping black folk are too stupid and can be cowed into going along with them, in spite of real history."<br /><br />Once you get past the initial question which is legitimate, the rest of this quote is simply assumption.<br /><br />"Did you watch the TV show "Blackish" last night?" You know what? Honestly, that would be a good homework assignment for you, go watch that, keeping in mind the Autopsy admonition to Listen to minorities."<br /><br />Again once you get past the (likely rhetorical) question, you assume the following.<br /><br />1. That I did not watch the show. (I didn't because of this inconvenient job thing)<br />2. That I would not watch the show at a later date.<br />3. That you have the authority or credibility to assign me homework.<br />4. That the "Autopsy" is somehow authoritative and must be adhered to.<br />5. That I am intentionally not keeping in mind the things the the autopsy.<br />6. That I need some autopsy to figure out how to deal with the diverse groups of people I interact with daily.<br />7. That I do not listen to minorities.<br /><br />That's seven assumptions in 35 words.<br /><br />"Listen to black folk"<br /><br />I know I pointed that out earlier, but you made the assumption that I do not at least twice.<br /><br />"Stop talking and listening only to yourselves."<br /><br />Another assumption.<br /><br />"Yes, if you only want to listen to the very very few black voices that already agree with you and ignore 90% of Black Americans, you certainly can find many (if a tiny percentage) who will agree with you on some things."<br /><br />Assumptions.<br /><br />1. That I only listen to blacks who agree with me.<br />2. That you are accurately summarizing the beliefs of 90 of black Americans.<br /><br />And there we have it once again, one of your claims contradicted by your own words.<br /><br /><br />Craighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17149415942585847184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7923725288901074422.post-50456761661326225902016-10-06T15:17:23.561-07:002016-10-06T15:17:23.561-07:00First, I have not totally blamed Obama, however it...First, I have not totally blamed Obama, however it did happen on his watch and to exempt him from responsibility is foolish. <br /><br />Second, you have obsessed on one thing you claim is a major contributor to the condions in the black community and pretend that there haven't been 20 years of liberal administrations who have chosen not the deal with this heinous problem. <br /><br />Third, you continually choose to have the temerity to lecture me about what your prejudices lead you to conclude are my behaviors. You compound this laziness by attempting to paint me as a supporter of every thing anyone who even remotely identifies as a republican has done to piss you off. Finally, you presume that I have the same sort of unquestioned loyalty to the Republican Party as you have for the democrats. <br /><br />Fourth and last, I have to note the coincide of how quickly you jumped off the tax thing when I got specific. I'm sure it was just your burning desire to selective blame the other for the war on drugs, not an inability to be specific. <br /><br />As so often happens, you've somehow taken something about which we have some level of agreement on and turn it into you responding to your prejudices about me rather than to my actual positions. If you're so blind as to be unable to see that the politics as usual, rich, white, establishment class represented by Clinton is a problem that spans both parties and so unwilling to acknowledge that liberal policies have been to blame, then you deserve exactly the government you vote for. <br /><br />I've always felt that the ability to vote on free, fair elections was one of the foundations of our republic. So to vote for someone who has had a hand in rigging two elections is just a bridge to far for me. Craighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17149415942585847184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7923725288901074422.post-11485600308132329052016-10-06T14:21:27.147-07:002016-10-06T14:21:27.147-07:00I guess if you're going to ignore me, it only ...<i>I guess if you're going to ignore me, it only makes sense that I would ignore you.</i> <br /><br />Clearly, you are ignoring me. Consider...<br /><br /><i>The problem is that you have pointed out one potential thing that may have had some unquantifiable impact on the black community at large and are trying to make the point that virtually nothing else is playing a role.</i> <br /><br />When in fact, the opposite is true. I offered the War on Drugs as ONE contributor (albeit a large one) to poverty problems for already poor people, including black folk. I am literally NOT saying that nothing else is playing a role. You can tell by the way I never said that and by my saying that this is one factor, for example.<br /><br /><i>You are clearly predisposed to place blame on your political enemies, and deflect blame fromyou're from your political allies without really looking at the fullness of the data.</i><br /><br />I offered ONE example because this is a blog with limited space and I am a man with limited time. But it is a vital example. And I'm not doing it to "place blame on political enemies (as you appear to be doing by suggesting black folk shouldn't support Obama because he didn't fix things for them). Indeed, I'm citing CONSERVATIVES who agree that this is a problem.<br /><br />The point was to help you see that it is not viewing all the data to try to blame Obama for what conservative policies have contributed largely to, and that ACCORDING TO CONSERVATIVES.<br /><br />"make assumptions about what you think, who you talk to, etc..."? <br /><br />Where have I done any of that? You are reading into my words things that aren't there. It literally did not happen. Which gets back to my raising the concern that the conservative authors of the Autopsy raised, about listening only to your echo chambers... maybe that's what is happening here, was a point I raised by way of question that comes from the conservative autopsy.<br /><br />~Dan<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7923725288901074422.post-73103192648282558972016-10-06T14:12:33.590-07:002016-10-06T14:12:33.590-07:00I guess if you're going to ignore me, it only ... I guess if you're going to ignore me, it only makes sense that I would ignore you. The problem is that you have pointed out one potential thing that may have had some unquantifiable impact on the black community at large and are trying to make the point that virtually nothing else is playing a role. You are clearly predisposed to place blame on your political enemies, and deflect blame fromyou're from your political allies without really looking at the fullness of the data.<br /><br /> Ultimately if all you're going to do is make assumptions about what I think, who I talk to, who I listen to, and where I get my information, then you've made it quite clear that you aren't actually interested in a dialogue only in a diatribe. The fact is that your candidate who you claim is incredibly well qualified to be president isn't addressing any of your issues in any of her public statements or in the debate. So it's quite clear that while there is a significant diversity of opinion There may be less so on the liberal side.<br /><br /> Well I don't understand this reflexive desire to place blame your respectiVe of any other factors that may exist I certainly can see how it helps you to maintain your worldview <br /><br /> I can't help but wonder how after eight years of Obama administration all the left has is to blame Reagan. It amazes me that at this point in the Obama administration folks like you still think he bears no responsibility for anything negative that has happened.<br />Craighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17149415942585847184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7923725288901074422.post-63918789927778308632016-10-06T14:08:51.517-07:002016-10-06T14:08:51.517-07:00It is Congress that makes and unmakes law here in ...It is Congress that makes and unmakes law here in the US, not the president.<br /><br />You see, people are smart enough to recognize that when conservatives create laws that harm the poor, that harm black communities disproportionately, and conservatives promise to be obstructionist and do what they can to block what a president wants, that it's not rational to blame the president for what conservatives are doing.<br /><br />Thus, when people say to black folks, "Why do you all support Obama? Things are worse for your community than they used to be! How does that make sense?! Isn't that foolish of you?!" ...they recognize that such people are too stupid to recognize the reality of what has happened, or that such people are aware of what happened and are hoping black folk are too stupid and can be cowed into going along with them, in spite of real history.<br /><br />Look, keep talking this way if you wish. I have let you know that it sounds condescending to many people and as if you are ignoring or trying to re-write history and this contributes to less support for the GOP and conservatism, not more. Or at least that's the opinion I hold as well as many many conservatives (see the Autopsy, again, see the many conservatives speaking to issues of race).<br /><br />Do with that what you will.<br /><br />Peace,<br /><br />~DanAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7923725288901074422.post-65064417930499822032016-10-06T14:02:02.168-07:002016-10-06T14:02:02.168-07:00 So your excuse for Obama not ending the war on dr... So your excuse for Obama not ending the war on drugs is that the leader of the free world is afraid to lead and that despite two years of complete control of the government and a vetoproof majority he, as well as numerous recent instances of the Republicans and Democrats Engaging in bipartisan legislation you still want to blame Reagan. Got it, makes perfect sense.Craighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17149415942585847184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7923725288901074422.post-12117197608963359852016-10-06T13:44:30.494-07:002016-10-06T13:44:30.494-07:00You can read Clinton's current planks on Drug ...You can read Clinton's current planks on Drug laws and justice reform here...<br /><br />https://www.quora.com/What-is-Hillary-Clintons-stance-on-the-War-on-Drugs<br /><br />I'm dubious of her positions in the past, but these positions she's currently stating are at least in the right direction towards decriminalizing drugs and emphasizing treatment rather than incarceration.<br /><br />At this point, who IS supporting the War on Drugs?<br /><br />~DanAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7923725288901074422.post-40414762225968670502016-10-06T13:37:41.614-07:002016-10-06T13:37:41.614-07:00Yes, let's have that conversation. Obama has b...Yes, let's have that conversation. Obama has been ready, I believe...<br /><br />"President Obama on Thursday said America’s decades-long war on drugs has been “unproductive” and that sending low-level narcotics offenders to prison tears apart families and leads to even more crime."<br /><br />http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/apr/9/obama-blasts-war-drugs-its-been-very-unproductive/<br /><br />http://www.salon.com/2016/09/01/obamas-bold-move-commuting-the-sentences-of-111-drug-offenders-is-the-right-step-in-easing-the-war-on-drugs/<br /><br />Why hasn't Obama ended it? A good question. I'm guessing it's primarily due to political considerations and the GOP congress and their obstructionism to anything Obama proposes.<br /><br />But as I have repeatedly said, I'm not so big a fan of the Clinton's and even Obama's been somewhat disappointing on several fronts (although, in comparison of ALL recent presidents, he's been something of a saint!) <br /><br />My point in bringing it up is that it is one major reason for the bad economy in black communities (this according to the conservative Cato Institute, amongst many others), and that this war was driven by conservatives, not progressives, not Obama. So, telling those poor black folk that Obama hasn't done enough to justify their support, when it's largely a conservative policy that has harmed their communities is a failure to listen to the black community and a patronizing dismissal of their real concerns.<br /><br />Look, you can ignore what many black folk are saying, you can ignore what I'm saying, you can even ignore what many conservatives are saying, including the authors of the Autopsy. My only point was that I truly believe you and many other conservatives (including beloved family members and friends) are not at all racist, but saying things like that do give a negative impression of conservatism and the GOP. Hence the tiny fraction of black support. <br /><br />It's NOT due to ignorance on the part of black folk. If you want to try to win them back, consider not talking like it is due to that.<br /><br />Or not, that's on you all. I'm truly just trying to help you see another angle.<br /><br />~DanAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7923725288901074422.post-39244066892827569042016-10-06T13:28:06.657-07:002016-10-06T13:28:06.657-07:00How can anyone possibly take you seriously when yo...How can anyone possibly take you seriously when you pull assumptions out of thin air, then presume to assign me homework based on your prejudices. <br /><br />Nice try. Craighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17149415942585847184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7923725288901074422.post-24513728392249435822016-10-06T13:25:37.857-07:002016-10-06T13:25:37.857-07:00If the war on drugs is so horrible, why have the C...If the war on drugs is so horrible, why have the Carter, Clinton, and P-BO administrations not done anything. Are you suggesting that the use of drugs is perhaps a boon to society. I know it's easier to blame others in the past, but seriously. <br /><br />But, to my larger point. Let's have a meaningful conversation about drug policy. Let's assess success and failure in as dispassionate a manner as possible. That's a worthy discussion to have, yet Clinton doesn't seem to want to have it. Hell, even all you want to do is demonstrate the diversity of thought in the conservative movement, which should be a good thing. <br /><br />Craighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17149415942585847184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7923725288901074422.post-56275667902889030062016-10-06T13:09:14.645-07:002016-10-06T13:09:14.645-07:00From the conservative Cato Institute...
"The...From the conservative Cato Institute...<br /><br />"The massive number of black men in prison stands as an ongoing andgraphically resonant rebuke to all calls to “get past racism,” exhibit initiative, or stress optimism. And the primary reason for this massive number of black men in jail is the War on Drugs...<br /><br />The War on Drugs destroys black families. It has become a norm for black children to grow up in single-parent homes, their fathers away in prison for long spells and barely knowing them. In poor and working-class black America, a man and a woman raising their children together is, of all things, an unusual sight. The War on Drugs plays a large part in this. It must stop."<br /><br />http://object.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/pubs/pdf/catosletterv9n1.pdf<br /><br />I'm just saying what many conservatives are saying.<br /><br />~Dan<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7923725288901074422.post-68645631223926050362016-10-06T13:04:52.146-07:002016-10-06T13:04:52.146-07:00I believe that looking to you for a definition of ...I believe that looking to you for a definition of what's a fair amount of taxes is an exercise in futility. I believe that having a tiny % of the population paying a disproportionate % of taxes is the opposite of fair. I believe that if paying taxes is such an honor, then everyone should pay them. I believe that taxing income is a absolutely absurd way to tax. I believe that there is absolutely no way that you don't pay your full entire share of taxes and take zero deductions. <br /><br />However, I also believe that you've stumbled into the conversation that the candidates should be having. Not the one where y'all call Trump names and excoriate him for engaging in perfectly legal and ethical behavior, but the one where we actually look at our tax system, look at why we have a federal government that is completely unwilling to live within its means. Why anyone at any income should have to pay more than 50% of their income in taxes. These are all great questions, worthy of national debate. Instead we get name calling. <br /><br />By all means, have that debate. <br /><br />But unless you can come up with an actual number expressed as a %, which represents "fair", can define specifically what you mean when you say "taxes", can offer a number expressed as a % of what % it total taxes should be paid by the "rich", and can define "rich" then further discussion would be pointless. <br /><br />As for Hillarys racist comments I've quoted some elsewhere, the recent racist joke from a campaign appearance should get you started. Craighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17149415942585847184noreply@blogger.com