tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7923725288901074422.post7456134415713489826..comments2024-03-28T20:21:44.352-07:00Comments on Through These Woods: The Bible, Wealth and Poverty, Part IDan Trabuehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14303597141397042669noreply@blogger.comBlogger59125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7923725288901074422.post-78000214679681694102005-12-23T10:06:00.000-08:002005-12-23T10:06:00.000-08:00Sister/Brother,I engaged in conversation with you....Sister/Brother,<br><br>I engaged in conversation with you. You were the one who did not want to respond to my questions - going so far as to remain anonymous. I very much love learning from others where they're coming from and what their position is, but discussion is a two way street.<br><br>So, no, I did not simply accept your posits as God's word. Doesn't mean I think you're dumb or mean and I never suggested so.<br><br>But by all means, stop by the next time you're in Louisville and I'll be glad to treat you to lunch or coffee and we can chat.<br><br>A Merry Christmas to you as well.<br><br>And his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, Almighty God, the Everlasting Creator, the Prince of Peace!Dan Trabuehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14303597141397042669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7923725288901074422.post-27894681934196132972005-12-23T09:59:00.000-08:002005-12-23T09:59:00.000-08:00Have a good day and a blessed Christmas!If I am ev...Have a good day and a blessed Christmas!<br>If I am ever in the Louisville area, maybe I will try to look you up so you can see what a mean person I am. Dumb too, I guess, but God has shown His love to me in such great ways that I just am so thankful that He has forgiven my sins and promised me a home in heaven for eternity.<br>May you seek Him as you grow older and know Him. He will lead us all into truth. No use my commenting anymore, your mind is made up.<br>Again, Merry Christmas!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7923725288901074422.post-60243071368101985322005-12-23T08:19:00.000-08:002005-12-23T08:19:00.000-08:00"Your thoughts about loving our enemies and t..."Your thoughts about loving our enemies and turning the other cheek, need some thought also."<br><br>Not my thoughts, brother anonymous. I've responded before to the whole red herring of "But what if someone were attacking your child?"<br><br>This is not an apt comparison for war. If someone were attacking a child, I would (and have) intervene. I would begin by stepping in between and stopping the abuse and work to de-escalate from there.<br><br>If war were merely the act of stopping one violent group from harming an innocent and defenseless group, this would be an apt comparison. As we know, this is not what war is.<br><br>The comparison to war would be, I hear that a man has been beating a child, I call up a bomber and drop a bomb on his house, hoping to stop the man.<br><br>Will there be collateral damage (innocents killed)? Yes, but that would not be my intent, my intent would be to stop the man.<br><br>THAT is the apt analogy and, as you can see, it would be a foolish action.<br><br>Yes, Jesus knew the heart of everyone. But John the Baptist did not. The prophets did not. AND YET, they condemned the wealthy, the oppressive, the powerful and the religious when their actions (not their hearts) gave cause for rebuke.<br><br>I have not accused you of being damned blind, I've accused those who "tend to choose to blame the crumbs we offer the poor and are just too damned blind to see where the real transfer of wealth is occurring."<br><br>"Blind guides" is an extremely accurate descriptor for those who'd condemn the poor who might steal pennies but not worry a bit about a military/industrial machine that would bankrupt the nation!<br><br>If you choose to identify with those whom I condemn as blind guides, feel free to take the "too damned blind to see" curse upon yourself. I did not assign it to you.Dan Trabuehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14303597141397042669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7923725288901074422.post-73174029622974957202005-12-23T07:42:00.000-08:002005-12-23T07:42:00.000-08:00You think there are inconsistencies in mine and ot...You think there are inconsistencies in mine and others way of thinking, but the same can be applied to you.<br>Your thoughts about loving our enemies and turning the other cheek, need some thought also. As I said yesterday, if you see someone attacking your child, will you stand and watch because you are supposed to love that attacker and will you go up to the attacker and tell him to slap or hit your child on the other cheek? Of course not!<br>That is what I am trying to get across to you about using scriptures to fit your belief.<br>As for the way Jesus talked and called people blind guides, He knew their hearts. I do not see George W. Bush in the same way that you do. Can either of us see and know his heart? I have told you before that I am a former Democrat and was for years longer than you have lived, so I am not a political person.<br>I believe you accused me of being so "damn" blind. I don't agree with you, but I would not say that to you on a public forum.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7923725288901074422.post-58734797379783786522005-12-23T07:30:00.000-08:002005-12-23T07:30:00.000-08:00re: "That is better than calling him [Bush]a ...re: "That is better than calling him [Bush]a liar."<br><br>Should John the Baptist NOT have called the pharisees "You brood of vipers!"? Should Jesus have NOT called the religious "blind guides?" Thieves?<br><br>There comes a time for speaking truth to power and when a president is lying to start illegal wars, THAT is a time if any.Dan Trabuehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14303597141397042669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7923725288901074422.post-72368311727914273812005-12-23T07:00:00.000-08:002005-12-23T07:00:00.000-08:00You said:"A good defense is better than the o...You said:<br>"A good defense is better than the offense." and as a US citizen, you are free to think so.<br><br>Just don't claim that this is anything approaching a biblical teaching. The biblical teaching is, of course, "relying upon God is a good defense."<br><br>As to your comment:<br>"Your questions that you think I did not answer are framed like poll questions."<br><br>What does that even mean? I asked you for a name? Not that difficult. I asked "Do you think it appropriate to use the OT as a guide for if and how the US should have a military?"<br><br>You are free to answer any way you wish, it wasn't multiple choice.<br><br>Here's how I would answer that question:<br>First, NO, the OT should NOT be a model for US defense. We are not a theocracy, we are a republic of many different beliefs.<br><br>Having said that, I am fine that, if you think the OT is a good model, that you would argue for that model AS LONG AS you have valid nonbiblical reasons for doing so. In other words, I wouldn't stand up before Congress and tell them "Because the OT says x, y, z, we should do x, y and z."<br><br>I COULD argue, "because x, y and z make logical sense based upon reasons a, b, c, d and e, we should do x, y and z. And just as the Israelis did x in the days of old, we will find x works for us, too."<br><br>In other words, in a secular republic we do not make policy because Mr. Trabue informs us that this is the biblical model, we do so based upon reason.<br><br>Now, having said all that, I think it would be a great improvement for us to have a defense that were modeled after the OT. We would be saving some hundreds of billions of dollars a year because we wouldn't have a standing army or a bloated bomb budget. <br><br>What I'm getting at is that I find it very irritating for christians to argue for war because<br>1. Jesus told us clearly to do good to our enemies and as Christians we should do naught else and<br>2. When they do argue for a big military, they inevitably cite the OT which does not endorse a big military.<br><br>It's bad biblical exegesis. It's poor theology. It's rotten logic.<br><br>I'm honestly asking: If you can't answer the question, could it be because there is not a biblical defense for your position? And brother man, is that the position you want to be in?Dan Trabuehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14303597141397042669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7923725288901074422.post-59056023968200102062005-12-22T13:06:00.000-08:002005-12-22T13:06:00.000-08:00I'm sorry a bit harshly. I see that you do kn...I'm sorry a bit harshly. I see that you do know the scriptures. Others have offered you good scriptural references to refute your views and it did not change your views. I am sure anything I refer you to will not either.<br>Scripture has to be taken in totality. Christ came to fulfill the law, but He did not do away with it.<br>So many that I see you agree with, only want to take certain scriptures and "throw" away any that would have a different angle than the one they want to take.<br>People are suffering all over the world and we in the US are the most blessed of all. My denomination is probably doing the most to alleviate<br>crisis, but is continually being beaten up by one of your friends that you post on her site and she, yours.<br>I think like eleutheros does, that real poverty does not exist as much as it is proclaimed. We are just a spoiled people. I have heard of real instances of need (sickness, loss of job, etc) and the people have to try so hard to get help that they get discouraged to the point of<br>dispair, yet able bodied young people are drawing money that is not used for its intended purpose.<br>War is hated by everyone, but evil people do not back off just because good people refuse to stand up to them. Remember 9/11. It may happen again somewhere else. I also believe that the Bible teaches that the world will become worse, not better until Christ returns. If someone harms your child, will you stand by and allow it without at least trying to fend them off?<br>A good defense is better than the offense. That is why I believe a strong military is necessary.<br>I would like to think there would never be a need for war, but I do not see this world becoming more peaceful until Jesus comes again.<br>Your questions that you think I did not answer are framed like poll questions. I would have to answer your way or I am wrong. I will pray for our President and I will and do pray for discernment. I hope you will too. (That is better than calling him a liar.)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7923725288901074422.post-73601636298091616232005-12-22T06:55:00.000-08:002005-12-22T06:55:00.000-08:00Anonymous, just curious: Do I know you? Why go by ...Anonymous, just curious: Do I know you? Why go by anonymous?<br><br>Anyway, we have the tradition of the prophets who call people to repent. We have Jesus and John the Baptist blasting religious hypocrisy. I'm not troubled too much by righteous indignation and anger. There's plenty of that evidenced in the Bible. <br><br>I feel like I go out of my way to be kind, but I will be direct with folk especially when I feel they're misusing God's word.<br><br>It's not out of hatred for anyone (although there ARE times...), but out of a calling to work towards God's Kingdom. "Thy Kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven..." You know?<br><br>Do we have a divided country right now? Yes. We do.<br><br>Are there debaters on both sides speaking words dripping of acid? Yes, there are.<br><br>Why would I quiz you about my pet issues? They're not mine, they're biblical teaching. And so, in an effort to be honest to God's word, I have asked you three questions (just as you've asked me questions) - both to understand where you're coming from and to confront the error that I believe lies between your arguments and God's Word.I'm not condemning you or anything, I'm just suggesting that if you can't answer them, maybe it's time to prayerfully reconsider your position?<br><br>Who am I to do so? Just another brother trying to get by with a little help from my friends.Dan Trabuehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14303597141397042669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7923725288901074422.post-54415646666223714202005-12-21T17:55:00.000-08:002005-12-21T17:55:00.000-08:00I believe that Jesus Christ died for my sins (acce...I believe that Jesus Christ died for my sins (accepted Him over 50 years ago), I know that I still sin, but if I confess my sins He is faithful and just to forgive me again, He arose from the grave and now lives and sits at the right hand of the Father and because of that I will live in eternity with Him.<br>I am responsible to Him for interpreting and living in a way that is pleasing to Him. Why should you quiz me about your pet issues and expect me to agree with you?<br>I know that I do not know everything and I don't expect perfection of any other living person.<br>I read a lot of the same blogs you do and I ask you to just examine the spirit of the ones you agree with. I see a lot of anger, unforgiveness that has hung around for over 20 years (SBC issues). Satan loves nothing better than having Christians fight with each other, while he takes more and more into defeated, lost lives.<br>I also see a lot of language used by bloggers that does nothing to lift up the Kingdom of God.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7923725288901074422.post-85088750143372324132005-12-21T14:59:00.000-08:002005-12-21T14:59:00.000-08:00Are you deliberately not answering my questions or...Are you deliberately not answering my questions or is that just an oversight?<br><br>1. Do you believe that the OT is an appropriate guide for if and how the US should have a military?<br><br>2. Do you believe Jesus meant it when he said to Love our enemies, do good to those who'd harm us?<br><br>3. Do you believe that Jesus' teachings are an advisable way to live (not that they're "wonderful" or "it would be great if everyone followed them")?Dan Trabuehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14303597141397042669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7923725288901074422.post-45843106254586490322005-12-21T14:21:00.000-08:002005-12-21T14:21:00.000-08:00Jesus teachings are wonderful. Oh, if only the wh...Jesus teachings are wonderful. Oh, if only the whole world would obey them.<br>Have you thought about the people that have been saved during the conflict in Iraq? Saddam would never have allowed those people to see the Jesus film or hear the gospel.<br>There are lots of things to consider when we try to interpret God's Word and live according to it, but above all else, He is in control.<br>No politician has all the answers or makes all the right decisions. It is our duty to pray for our President and elected officials. Would you want the President's job and the weight that is on his shoulders, plus all the malicious judgements that are thrown at him?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7923725288901074422.post-13901987024658951042005-12-21T13:51:00.000-08:002005-12-21T13:51:00.000-08:00From your answer "Now in an age of terrorism,...From your answer "Now in an age of terrorism, you are dreaming." are you intending to say that both the OT teachings AND Jesus' teachings are impractical?<br><br>I'm just not clear on your response.<br><br>For myself, I find Jesus' teachings extremely practical and at least as likely to work at bringing peace as war would/does. Call me Nutty.<br><br>And, to paraphrase Shadrach, Meshack and Abednego, EVEN IF Jesus' teachings did not bring salvation, I WILL STILL NOT BOW DOWN to your gods of war.<br><br>Jesus is just all right with me.Dan Trabuehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14303597141397042669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7923725288901074422.post-25527366868358008642005-12-21T13:41:00.000-08:002005-12-21T13:41:00.000-08:00"pacifism cannot bring peace,You misquoted me..."pacifism cannot bring peace,<br>You misquoted me. There is a time and a season for everything.<br>Now in an age of terrorism, you are dreaming.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7923725288901074422.post-45893881503381220542005-12-21T10:36:00.000-08:002005-12-21T10:36:00.000-08:00When you make a comment like, "pacifism canno...When you make a comment like, "pacifism cannot bring peace," do you recognize the irony of the implication? That War WILL bring peace?<br><br>As to your question about Israel and an army: I don't have an opinion one way or the other if any nation wants to have an army. If they want to, it's okay with me. I only ask that they set up some sort of parameters such as the Just War Theory as to when it will and will not be used.<br><br>Now, my questions for you:<br>1. Do you believe that the OT is an appropriate guide for if and how the US should have a military?<br>2. Do you believe Jesus meant it when he said to Love our enemies, do good to those who'd harm us?<br>3. Do you believe that Jesus' teachings are an advisable way to live?<br><br>Myself, I do believe that Jesus' teachings are a grand way to live.<br><br>Hallelujah for the Prince of Peace, indeed. And curses upon the Prince of War. May we all follow the former.Dan Trabuehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14303597141397042669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7923725288901074422.post-37688330619796593772005-12-21T09:56:00.000-08:002005-12-21T09:56:00.000-08:00I have a question for you.If the military is almos...I have a question for you.<br>If the military is almost an evil thing, should Israel have a military?<br>Would they live in safety if they would just smile at their enemies and bless them?<br>It is my opinion that this present Israeli P.M. is being too considerate of demands made upon them to give up land that rightfully belongs to them, plus even more than they now possess.<br>I hate war! The only problem is that pacifism will not bring peace. Innocent people are preyed upon by those mightier than they and deserve some mercy from those who desire to aid them.<br>Merry Christmas! Hallellujah for the Prince of Peace! He is coming again!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7923725288901074422.post-70480295370778692032005-12-21T09:44:00.000-08:002005-12-21T09:44:00.000-08:00This IS my judgement alone. Based upon what I read...This IS my judgement alone. Based upon what I read in the bible and what I see in the real world, but mine alone it is and there is One who knows better than you or I do.<br><br>What I get tired of is what appears to me to be very lame readings of the OT (ie, there are wars that happen in the OT, therefore it is okay for us as Christians to drop atomic bombs upon cities).<br><br>We will certainly have different interpretations of what the Bible says, but at the same time, there is a logic that can be sorted out and sometimes some folk's logic just isn't sound.<br><br>As in my example above. The logical problem with that argument is that:<br><br>1. Just because there are examples of war in the OT, it does not follow that Jesus (who taught us differently) would have us wage war.<br>2. If you accept the examples of war in the OT, then you ought to accept the parameters (ie, God's repeated warnings NOT to rely upon military might) laid out therein.Dan Trabuehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14303597141397042669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7923725288901074422.post-71406466981843997882005-12-21T09:07:00.000-08:002005-12-21T09:07:00.000-08:00too damned blind to seeIs this your judgement?Coul...too damned blind to see<br><br>Is this your judgement?<br>Could there be One Who knows better than we?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7923725288901074422.post-15360427617559043242005-12-21T08:48:00.000-08:002005-12-21T08:48:00.000-08:00Samuel's message from God to the Israeli's...Samuel's message from God to the Israeli's upon their foolish request for a king:<br><br>"The rights of the king who will rule you will be as follows: He will take your sons and assign them to his chariots and horses, and they will run before his chariot.<br><br> He will also appoint from among them his commanders of groups of a thousand and of a hundred soldiers. He will set them to do his plowing and his harvesting, and to make his implements of war and the equipment of his chariots.<br><br> He will use your daughters as ointment-makers, as cooks, and as bakers.<br><br> He will take the best of your fields, vineyards, and olive groves, and give them to his officials.<br><br> He will tithe your crops and your vineyards, and give the revenue to his eunuchs and his slaves.<br><br> He will take your male and female servants, as well as your best oxen and your asses, and use them to do his work.<br><br> He will tithe your flocks and you yourselves will become his slaves.<br><br> When this takes place, you will complain against the king whom you have chosen, but on that day the LORD will not answer you."<br><br> The people, however, refused to listen to Samuel's warning and said, "Not so! There must be a king over us. We too must be like other nations, with a king to rule us and to lead us in warfare and fight our battles."<br><br>======<br><br>"When this takes place, you will complain against the king whom you have chosen..." Complaining about how much money the gov't takes? Complaining about BIG Gov't? Complaining about loss of liberty?<br><br>This SHOULD be a conservative issue. Instead, they tend to choose to blame the crumbs we offer the poor and are just too damned blind to see where the real transfer of wealth is occurring.<br><br>Let those who have eyes, see!Dan Trabuehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14303597141397042669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7923725288901074422.post-64343314284629654742005-12-21T08:40:00.000-08:002005-12-21T08:40:00.000-08:00our battles."Pacifists don't know about t...our battles."<br><br>Pacifists don't know about the need for a military? Apparently, neither does God IN THE OLD TESTAMENT, <br><br>which you'd prefer to believe over Jesus' teachings. You want OT-style war-making? Fine.<br><br>God repeatedly tells the Israelites NOT to trust in a military. Not to depend upon the latest and <br><br>greatest weaponry (chariots, in their day). NOT to rely upon a standing army.<br><br>Instead, they were to trust in God.<br><br>So, if you want to rely on the OT as a measure of what we should do, fine. Get rid of your standing army, <br><br>relying instead upon an army called together only in times of emergencies. Get rid of your large <br>weaponry, they are an abomination to God, who wants us to rely upon him.Dan Trabuehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14303597141397042669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7923725288901074422.post-51233024052957630872005-12-20T15:05:00.000-08:002005-12-20T15:05:00.000-08:00I know that it is hopeless to try to explain to a ...I know that it is hopeless to try to explain to a pacifist why a military if necessary.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7923725288901074422.post-26695185719056244092005-12-20T12:23:00.000-08:002005-12-20T12:23:00.000-08:00I just thought of a fact that I could relay to you...I just thought of a fact that I could relay to you.<br>Our local newspaper prints yearly the salaries of the local state employees. All full time employees of the state are better paid than almost all the other jobs in the community.<br>I notice your friend Marty has employment as an Administrator in non-profit industry. Another reason you two see eye to eye.<br>That is another problem with our welfare system....it costs so much to administer it and yet there are no checkups on recipients.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7923725288901074422.post-32681601190506124632005-12-19T12:27:00.000-08:002005-12-19T12:27:00.000-08:00Anon said:" I don't know what you mean ab...Anon said:<br>" I don't know what you mean about "facts"."<br><br>Instead of me repeating myself, see the next entry and the last comment I made upon it. I give one example of how it costs less to pay money to educate prisoners because it reduces recidivism. There are other examples, but I just want to see if we agree on the concept...<br><br>Thanks.Dan Trabuehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14303597141397042669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7923725288901074422.post-1373760105883570982005-12-19T11:39:00.000-08:002005-12-19T11:39:00.000-08:00I don't know what you mean about "facts&q...I don't know what you mean about "facts". One fact I know is that as a former Democrat, it seems the party doesn't want to hold people personally responsible. You are from a different generation than I and it seems to be a different feeling about who is responsible for actions.<br>Also, since you mentioned your wife's occupation I am sure you will defend the system. Systems are necessary, but oversight is important.<br>The same young woman I have talked about once got a lump sum check for 5 figures and didn't even know what for, then spent it in about 4 months and what does she have to show for it? She has everything she wants and does not care much about it in 2 or 3 weeks, so she will sell it for peanuts.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7923725288901074422.post-21871741503793678072005-12-19T10:47:00.000-08:002005-12-19T10:47:00.000-08:00Anonymous,I'm sure you could go on a bit longe...Anonymous,<br><br>I'm sure you could go on a bit longer about your personal experience. I've had a few myself. <br><br>I'm asking you, though, about how you respond to facts.<br><br>Is it wiser to pay upfront to assist those who struggle (and their children) or to pay MORE after the fact? (Yes, along with working to stop welfare fraud and laziness where it happens).Dan Trabuehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14303597141397042669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7923725288901074422.post-52295448410903166622005-12-19T09:58:00.000-08:002005-12-19T09:58:00.000-08:00I wonder how it might be if we kept out the illega...I wonder how it might be if we kept out the illegals and made the able bodied welfare recipients work. I think the idleness of these young people contributes to their drug use, promiscuousness and disrespect for public properties and a few other things I know of. Public housing in this community I live in was built new a few years ago and is maintained by our tax dollars and I visit a lot of them with church related program and doors are kicked in, window screens torn and trash in the yards. When things come easy to people, they don't seem to appreciate them. I hear things like, "I'm not going to work there, they will cut my check". What is wrong with this picture?<br>I grew up thinking that work was just a way of life and that beggars were not to be choosers.<br>I also notice that the taste of a lot of people on "free" money is above mine when it comes to the type of meat bought, tvs acquired and I could go on a bit longer.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com