tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7923725288901074422.post4605026355270317045..comments2024-03-29T06:26:33.285-07:00Comments on Through These Woods: Sabbath EconomicsDan Trabuehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14303597141397042669noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7923725288901074422.post-45193687855003014262010-09-07T12:02:10.581-07:002010-09-07T12:02:10.581-07:00Dan,As you can expect, I do disagree with you. I ...Dan,<br>As you can expect, I do disagree with you. I believe Joseph's dream was of God based on my different view of interpreting the Bible. <br><br>What bothers me is you discount Joseph hearing a dream from God, yet you have no problem with the story of God dropping bread from the sky. Although you may believe neither miracle in physical reality, you accept the latter in principle but not the former. <br><br>I think when taking the whole Bible into perspective, your point for the most part stands, although I think it is a little more balanced. Was the person Jesus called a fool wrong for stockpiling everything? Yes, I believe so. But it seemed that the issue was that he kept everything for himself, not giving any away to anyone else. <br><br>I think if you take the perspective that saving of any sort is bad, that can be a dangerous thing. I think there is a huge difference between saving simply to accumulate vs saving for an anticipated shortage. Proverbs 6:6-8 touches on this, speaking about the ant who saves during the harvest. If I knew that my job was going to end in 3 months, would I not be foolish to not save anything for the hard times coming ahead. Yes, I would trust God to provide and look for a job, but I would be irresponsible and do a disservice to my family if I did nothing. That is what I see Joseph doing. Although we don't really see visions anymore, I think the principle is still there. Even if you don't believe that he actually had a vision, the gist of the story remains the same. <br><br>I think taking the whole Bible into perspective, we can be responsible without being greedy. I think we can be responsible yet trust God for our daily provisions. I do not see that Joseph did anything wrong.Chancehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09715105658994917163noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7923725288901074422.post-48782836585652685092010-07-30T06:07:34.770-07:002010-07-30T06:07:34.770-07:00Whether I totally agree with him is not the point....<i>Whether I totally agree with him is not the point. The point is that he caused me to think.</i><br><br>That would be my point as well, Miss Marty. Thanks.<br><br>Thank you, too, Doug.Dan Trabuehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14303597141397042669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7923725288901074422.post-31245116881543974082010-07-29T07:53:18.776-07:002010-07-29T07:53:18.776-07:00I heartily agree that the Bible has much to say on...I heartily agree that the Bible has much to say on economics. I listed to the Crown Financial Ministries podcast, which is always reminding folks of that.<br><br>I'm just pointing out that I think, in this particular instance, the message is being shoehorned in, with consequences to serious Bible interpretation that are being ignored.<br><br>Thanks.Doughttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09604044501199775703noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7923725288901074422.post-31379263078165391172010-07-29T07:51:37.169-07:002010-07-29T07:51:37.169-07:00"the Bible and economics has been so woefully..."the Bible and economics has been so woefully UNDER-emphasized, poorly understood and outright ignored for many years in much of the church."<br><br>I'd have to agree with that. It wasn't until I started attending a Methodist church that I even knew Scripture spoke on economics. Even when preaching on the "poor" it was mostly "spiritual" in nature and the literal was completely glossed over. It was like...well...the poor you have with you always...so it wasn't too important.<br><br>I really liked the sermon Dan. Rick brought up things that I had never even thought about. Whether I totally agree with him is not the point. The point is that he caused me to think. And for that I thank you for posting it.Martyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02908921670853665703noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7923725288901074422.post-45197176429647329742010-07-29T07:19:53.752-07:002010-07-29T07:19:53.752-07:00I do personally know people whom God has spoken to...<i>I do personally know people whom God has spoken to through dreams, through the dream itself rather than someone else's interpretation.</i><br><br>I'm not prepared to discount mysticism, or mystical happenings. IF someone believes God spoke to them through a dream and that "message" isn't a harmful one and it was meaningful for them, good on them. Hold on to that if it's meaningful and helps in your walk.<br><br>I do not believe, though, that an objective case can be made that this is normative or that we ought to count on this as the way God communicates or works in this world typically.<br><br>I don't think taking the Bible seriously requires that we must believe that stories that hint at God revealing stuff in a dream literally.<br><br>People told stories in different ways in older cultures and we ought to take that into account when studying the Bible. They are not modern folk passing on history and facts the way that we might. To assume that is a bit of cultural chauvinism, it seems to me, that might contribute to poor biblical exegesis.<br><br>As noted, I'm not saying that Joseph's dream was one of intentional greed, just noting the reality that the concentrated wealth in Egypt DID lead eventually to Israel's enslavement, and that such concentrations of wealth and power are to be cautioned against.<br><br>It doesn't sound like you disagree.<br><br>That would be the point to walk away with from this sermon, I think. One of them.Dan Trabuehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14303597141397042669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7923725288901074422.post-89128073759096372502010-07-29T07:07:25.118-07:002010-07-29T07:07:25.118-07:00Whether it's intentional, or where you folks h...<i>Whether it's intentional, or where you folks have a set of glasses you're unknowningly wearing that filter everything in the Bible through an economic prism, because that's a very important issue for you, I don't really know.</i><br><br>We, being mostly Baptists, are a people of the Bible. Taking the Bible extremely seriously is how most of us were raised or how we came to adulthood in our Christianity, if not raised that way.<br><br>We "find" much about economics in the Bible for one reason: It's there. <br><br>It is a central core theme found from A to Z in the Bible. Now, perhaps it MIGHT be said that we at Jeff St overemphasize it, I guess a case could be made. But if that's the case, the reason would be because the Bible and economics has been so woefully UNDER-emphasized, poorly understood and outright ignored for many years in much of the church.<br><br>As I have noted before, the Bible talks about economic themes (issues of poverty and wealth, what we do with our wealth, how we treat the poor, the trappings of wealth, justice issues as it relates to the widow, the orphan, the outcast, the foreigner - the economically and societally marginalized - etc, etc) just about more than anything else, with just a few exceptions (the Kingdom of God, I believe would be one, unless one tends to think of Kingdom living as an economic issue, too).<br><br>So, where you say...<br><br><i>I honestly think it's the latter because I know a bit about you and don't really think you do this intentionally; it's just the mindset you have, and thus bring to the table.</i><br><br>It's not something I originally brought to the table. It got there through Bible study and Bible study alone. That is, I was not a socialist looking for biblical support for my position. I was a Reagan Republican and Bible study made me realize the prevalence of economic themes.<br><br>It's not a mindset that I'm trying to insert into Bible study, it was thrust upon me BY Bible study.<br><br>As is true for most of us at Jeff St.<br><br>Once you realize it's there and start watching for it, it is really surprising how consistently it's there in the Bible.<br><br>At least that's what we've found.<br><br>I guess you DO realize, too, how prevalent this theme is, at least in terms of sheer pages devoted to the topic?<br><br>Thanks for the input, Doug. I do appreciate it. I hope my clarification helps explain my position.Dan Trabuehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14303597141397042669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7923725288901074422.post-46863764494855687172010-07-29T06:28:12.689-07:002010-07-29T06:28:12.689-07:00Folk have this tendency when things happen the way...<i>Folk have this tendency when things happen the way "they felt like" or "dreamed" that it would happen, to give God the credit. I don't think the Bible teaches us - or real world experience teaches us that God works that way.</i><br><br>It's a bit self-serving to say God doesn't work that way simply because you dismiss where in the Bible it appears that he does. I'm not suggesting you're intentionally dismissing Joseph's whole story, just that you (and Rick) are dismissing Joseph's prediction, and that it did in fact come true, to make some other point.<br><br>And that point is, as usual, economic. I used to think this overemphasis on economics was yours, but it appears to be part of Jeff St. in general. But in order to make that point you have to:<br><br>* Call into question whether Joseph's dreams interpretation ability was from God.<br>* Entirely beg the question, "If not God, then whom?"<br>* Suggest that, while it was said that the Lord gave Joseph success in everything he did, that this, for some reason, excludes dream interpretation and the particular actions he took in this situation.<br><br>This is all done on, essentially, a technicality. "Well, the text doesn't actally say that, this particular ability and thus that particular action were specifically from God." I'm saying that God was in all of this, and while that's implied, it's implied rather strongly by saying the Lord gave him these successes. I would submit that your interpretation also relies on implications, but that the series of them is rather long, and the text doesn't even weakly imply them, not to mention the glaring questions these implications bring up. <br><br>And all this to make, what really appears to me to be, a pet point. Any economic prosperity in the Bible <i>must</i>, by definition, be spoken against, so as to legitimize the political and social agenda. At least that's what it looks like from this end. <br><br>Whether it's intentional, or where you folks have a set of glasses you're unknowningly wearing that filter everything in the Bible through an economic prism, because that's a very important issue for you, I don't really know. I honestly think it's the latter because I know a bit about you and don't really think you do this intentionally; it's just the mindset you have, and thus bring to the table. I have mine, for sure, based on my set of experiences and the issues that move me. And the same could likely be said about the church I attend. I just want to put this out and let you know what an outside observer sees.<br><br>On another topic, yes, I do personally know people whom God has spoken to through dreams, through the dream itself rather than someone else's interpretation. Through my missionary in-laws, there are stories of similar things in their field. However, I've never known anyone who<br><br>* Talked to a donkey and the donkey talked back.<br>* Caused the sun to run backwards<br>* Was raised from the dead<br><br>But I'm not willing to categorically deny these things happened because I have not had experience with or heard news of them in the present day. I have hear of other types of miraculous things happen, however, so I don't really dismiss anything out of hand. Healthy skepticism is always a good idea, but I think God still does work miraculous signs today.Doughttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09604044501199775703noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7923725288901074422.post-72263805543036856582010-07-28T18:52:28.591-07:002010-07-28T18:52:28.591-07:00I'm not dismissing the stories of Joseph recou...I'm not dismissing the stories of Joseph recounted in the Bible, just suggesting it's always wise when reading the Bible to keep in mind that these are very human people with all the foibles inherent to the human condition.<br><br>To make them "super human good guys" seems to me to take away more from their story than if they are just folk.<br><br><i>Seems pretty straightforward to me where Joseph is giving the credit, which doesn't appear good enough for you. </i><br><br>While I think it is entirely possible for God to let us "see the future" through dreams - God being God - I just don't think that's the way God tends to work.<br><br>Folk have this tendency when things happen the way "they felt like" or "dreamed" that it would happen, to give God the credit. I don't think the Bible teaches us - or real world experience teaches us that God works that way.<br><br>I'm fine with that possibility in the story of Joseph, but I'm just as fine to assume that Joseph is attributing something to God that may not be of God, Joseph being a fallible human being.<br><br>Do you think God goes around granting people supernatural vision to read dreams and tell the future? Who today does that, for instance?<br><br>Or do you think God USED to do that, but no longer does this?Dan Trabuehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14303597141397042669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7923725288901074422.post-38275488211916881592010-07-28T16:49:28.504-07:002010-07-28T16:49:28.504-07:00But no where in the text does it say anything like...<i>But no where in the text does it say anything like, "And the LORD blessed Joseph, so that he could interpret dreams."</i><br><br>Genesis 39:2-4a: 2 The LORD was with Joseph and he prospered, and he lived in the house of his Egyptian master. 3 When his master saw that the LORD was with him and that the LORD gave him success in everything he did, 4 Joseph found favor in his eyes and became his attendant.<br><br>verses 20b-23: But while Joseph was there in the prison, 21 the LORD was with him; he showed him kindness and granted him favor in the eyes of the prison warden. 22 So the warden put Joseph in charge of all those held in the prison, and he was made responsible for all that was done there. 23 The warden paid no attention to anything under Joseph's care, because the LORD was with Joseph and gave him success in whatever he did.<br><br>So we're told clearly that the Lord was with Joseph. Right after this, his prison mates have dreams and Joseph says (Gen. 40:8), ""We both had dreams," they answered, "but there is no one to interpret them. Then Joseph said to them, "<b>Do not interpretations belong to God?</b> Tell me your dreams."<br><br>And he interprets them. Finally, when Joseph gets to Pharoah, he completely humbles himself (Gen 41:16); "I cannot do it," Joseph replied to Pharaoh, "but God will give Pharaoh the answer he desires."<br><br>And then he interprets it. Seems pretty straightforward to me where Joseph is giving the credit, which doesn't appear good enough for you. But the main question of the origin is, if his predictions did <i>not</i> come from God, the only other options are that they came from Satan or that Joseph was one really lucky guy at predictions. The Lord blessed him in everything he did, 'cept this dream interpretation thing? The text says the former, but we're to suddenly infer that this ability is a glaring exception? That, I think, is reading too much into it, rather than continuing with what has already been established; the Lord was with him and the Lord gave him success in everything he did, including interpreting dreams. That is by no means a stretch.<br><br>By your reading, all this that happened to Joseph cannot be thought of as being God's will. It's only Joseph who says later that "it was to save lives that God sent me ahead of you". Hey, we just have his word for that. Since we only have Joseph's word, you don't think that God had any hand in doing this? It matters, especially since you and Rich are implying that the dream Joseph had of the famine and his actions to prepare for it are, essentially, not of God, and therefore considering his actions a bad example. <br><br>The small thing of saying "Well the text doesn't explicitly say that this particular action of Joseph was of God" turns the whole text on its head. Not even Biblical literalists try to do that.<br><br><i>As you know, these were real people with real hangups. It's entirely likely (judging from the text) that Joseph was an arrogant and annoying brother. He was a flawed human being.</i><br><br>Absolutely agree. But that just makes Joseph, in that regard, like every other human being. It doesn't dismiss anything that Joseph did.Doughttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09604044501199775703noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7923725288901074422.post-84844316359587454352010-07-28T14:31:40.486-07:002010-07-28T14:31:40.486-07:00There is nothing inherently wrong with storing thi...<i>There is nothing inherently wrong with storing things up. As with most sins, the problem is in the intent of the corporation or the government or the individual. </i><br><br>I would disagree. If the city of Atlanta wants to store up water so that they have plenty for themselves, BUT as a result, those downstream from Atlanta don't have enough, storing things up CAN be a problem in and of itself.<br><br>Sometimes it's the storing that is the problem. I am not saying every time and I'm not disagreeing that motive is important, but even IF we have a good motive (take care of mine and share with others) IF it has negative results, good intentions will only get you so far.Dan Trabuehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14303597141397042669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7923725288901074422.post-55441722580105541282010-07-28T14:28:31.488-07:002010-07-28T14:28:31.488-07:00...doing what God told him to do...Interesting poi...<i>...doing what God told him to do...</i><br><br>Interesting point, this. I believe in the subtext - if not the text - of Rick's sermon was the suggestion that WE have made Joseph's dream interpretation out to be something God had ordained and blessed.<br><br>The text of the Bible does not say this, though. Go ahead and review Genesis 37-40, where this story is told. We are told that Joseph had dreams and that he gladly told everyone the meaning of his dreams.<br><br>We are told that his predictions come true.<br><br>We are told he tells other people their dreams and those predictions come true.<br><br>But no where in the text does it say anything like, "And the LORD blessed Joseph, so that he could interpret dreams."<br><br>Joseph clearly thought so, but the text does not say that GOD thought so.<br><br>I think the point would be that oftentimes, we take our Bible heroes and make them larger than life and more Godly than the text calls for. As you know, these were real people with real hangups. It's entirely likely (judging from the text) that Joseph was an arrogant and annoying brother. He was a flawed human being.<br><br>Does the text suggest that these dreams were foretold by God? No, other than Joseph making that claim, but the text does not make that claim and, desiring to be accurate to the text, we wouldn't want to demand that as the only possible solution.<br><br>I believe this was what Rick was suggesting in this case. Regardless, it makes sense to me.Dan Trabuehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14303597141397042669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7923725288901074422.post-61994769044356633662010-07-28T13:52:49.223-07:002010-07-28T13:52:49.223-07:00What I hear him saying is that Joseph......doing w...<i>What I hear him saying is that Joseph...</i><br><br>...doing what God told him to do...<br><br><i>...indirectly paved the way for the enslavement of Israel in Egypt by the gathering of resources all in one central location by a ruling elite.</i><br><br>Indeed, but the portion of the sermon that you quote dis's Joseph's dream from God specifically. Or at the very least I think it misrepresents it. Rick seems to be suggesting that the dream was one of hoarding <i>for yourself</i>, e.g. "take all <i>you</i> can", "turns into a nightmare for others". In fact, they took in all they could so that it could be made available to <i>others</i> at a later date. At a price, indeed, but at least it was <i>available</i> at a price, vs not being able to buy it at any price. <br><br>Stockpiling <i>for yourself</i> beyond what you need is indeed spoken against in the Bible. But having plenty so you can give to others, and/or being prudent with your own resources.<br><br>Proverbs 13:22: A good man leaves an inheritance for his children's children...<br><br>Proverbs 20:21: In the house of the wise are stores of choice food and oil, but a foolish man devours all he has.<br><br>There is nothing inherently wrong with storing things up. As with most sins, the problem is in the intent of the corporation or the government <i>or the individual</i>. <br><br>And I'd love to find out if Rick was for or against the consolidation of power in Washington with regards to the health care bill. Oh, it's for a good cause, no doubt. Good intentions. Much like the good that the stockpiles in Egypt were used for; keeping the people alive during a famine. And yet....Doughttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09604044501199775703noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7923725288901074422.post-76662252639495833052010-07-28T10:24:18.992-07:002010-07-28T10:24:18.992-07:00Is Rick saying that Joseph's prophetic dream w...<i>Is Rick saying that Joseph's prophetic dream was not of God?</i><br><br>I'd hesitate to speak for Rick. What I hear him saying is that Joseph indirectly paved the way for the enslavement of Israel in Egypt by the gathering of resources all in one central location by a ruling elite.<br><br>I think clearly the intent of Joseph was for good, I don't think Rick is suggesting otherwise.<br><br>I think "the stockpiling" of resources often leads to a bad end and is warned of in the Bible - Jesus scoffs at the man who builds barns and then bigger barns for holding all his "stuff" for the future. In fact, Jesus is pretty harsh on such a person - "You fool!" he says.<br><br>Ouch.<br><br>I think Rick's message is suggesting that the stockpiling of too much power and resources in one or a few sources - whether corporations or gov'ts - is something to be very wary of.<br><br>I think the Bible - and history - bear this out.Dan Trabuehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14303597141397042669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7923725288901074422.post-64226161154995668092010-07-27T12:10:06.180-07:002010-07-27T12:10:06.180-07:00Is Rick saying that Joseph's prophetic dream w...Is Rick saying that Joseph's prophetic dream was not of God? Is he saying that the proverbs about preparing for the future should be ignored? If not for the preparedness of stockpiling for an imminent famine, Joseph's family would have possibly died. Whether that's better than slavery in Egypt is a separate topic, but his foresight saved rich and poor alike from starvation.<br><br>That governments granted too much power abuse it is another topic for another day, but you can hardly lay that at the feet of Joseph's prophecy.<br><br>I appreciate the point Rick's trying to get across. Rejecting hoarding, materialism, with no thought for our neighbors is a lesson to be learned, but I think he's taking large liberties to be able to make that point.Doughttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09604044501199775703noreply@blogger.com