tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7923725288901074422.post1558741461031111120..comments2024-03-28T00:32:20.743-07:00Comments on Through These Woods: The State of DebateDan Trabuehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14303597141397042669noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7923725288901074422.post-86670164486559679782005-11-11T13:57:00.000-08:002005-11-11T13:57:00.000-08:00I want to leave the argument over tactics and cour...I want to leave the argument over tactics and courtesy to return to the comparison you drew between the terrorists and the Americans. I think you mischaracterize the terrorist's view to make your point. It's not that they are willing to accept innocent casualties in pursuit of their goal; it's that they don't believe there are <b>any</b> innocent Americans. I haven't heard anyone, even the Pats (Robertson and Buchanan), say there are no innocent Muslims/Iraqis/etc. That is a pretty major difference as I see it.Roberthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17618850852567244918noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7923725288901074422.post-26657465183759699852005-11-02T05:46:00.000-08:002005-11-02T05:46:00.000-08:00you liberal hippie!you liberal hippie!Dan Trabuehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14303597141397042669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7923725288901074422.post-46796551954118988012005-11-02T04:34:00.000-08:002005-11-02T04:34:00.000-08:00The thing I find about labels, like conservative, ...The thing I find about labels, like conservative, liberal, and the like, is that they are so constricting. I think of them like underwear. They bunch up at inconvenient times, chaff in unpleasant places, constrict who we really are, and stink if worn too long. We are best off if we just don’t use them!whollymanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09167238289695815659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7923725288901074422.post-72633169327565436442005-10-31T12:24:00.000-08:002005-10-31T12:24:00.000-08:00Hey Rob! Thanks for stopping by and "speaking...Hey Rob! Thanks for stopping by and "speaking" up.<br><br>Good to hear from you all. Thanks.<br><br>And I do think I'd have to agree with Sylvia that since keeping an open mind is central to liberal dogma, there's more of a tendency to NOT be so argumentative and consider the "other side's" point.<br><br>That said, we all know plenty of liberals who are open-minded as long as you agree with them on a few key issues. But if not...Dan Trabuehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14303597141397042669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7923725288901074422.post-28831208783171767252005-10-30T11:21:00.000-08:002005-10-30T11:21:00.000-08:00I agree with Dan. Most of the fired-up bloggers a...I agree with Dan. Most of the fired-up bloggers are conservatives, but then again I have no reason to stray far from the pack on liberal blogs. I think that more often than not both sides are equally venomous towards the opposition. You can't tell me that liberals are treated as equals on Mike's America, even when they show civility and intellect.Son of Lilithhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12694223831749879932noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7923725288901074422.post-42908205298400208022005-10-29T13:01:00.000-07:002005-10-29T13:01:00.000-07:00I'd disagree with that. I've found that so...I'd disagree with that. I've found that some of the most disagreeable, nasty propoganda on the net is produced by liberals. And I'd probably plot further to the liberal side of the graph than conservative.<br><br>Inclusive... if you agree with us. If you don't, you're a pitiable redneck bonehead holding back the enlightenment of civilization.<br><br>Strictly anecdotal, of course.madcapmumhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08966173518099250557noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7923725288901074422.post-7700629113767806602005-10-29T09:39:00.000-07:002005-10-29T09:39:00.000-07:00I'm afraid that for most people (throughout hi...I'm afraid that for most people (throughout history) the only logic that makes any sense is Us vs. Them. Whatever strengthens that equation is nurtured, whatever questions it must be destroyed.<br><br>It's no accident that this is more of a problem among conservatives because they tend to be exclusive, while inclusivity is a core liberal/progressive value.Sylviahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11516916283714013599noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7923725288901074422.post-1785926025494456432005-10-28T14:53:00.000-07:002005-10-28T14:53:00.000-07:00Most folks "debating" politics these day...Most folks "debating" politics these days, in any venue, are tragically not trying to learn anything, or even persuade, but are trying to win. Debate is mere competition, where too often the end justifies the means. The art of persuasion is what is lost in this society. So is the desire to move people in such a way that their lives are actually transformed. Their hearts are transformed. It's much easier to coerce and force or manipulate. Might makes right. To think otherwise may force one to realize they we all have some of the truth (Gandhi).Rob Toneynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7923725288901074422.post-23048761571174432942005-10-28T11:22:00.000-07:002005-10-28T11:22:00.000-07:00Thanks all and yes, Daniel and Eleutheros, you are...Thanks all and yes, Daniel and Eleutheros, you are certainly correct that it's not a universal conservative trait.<br><br>I will say though, that, at least in the blogosphere, I run in to poor debating skills and lack of common courtesy more frequently than not on conservative sites (present company excluded) but perhaps that's because I'm often in agreement at the liberal ones and therefore they have no reason to blast me as the Cons do.<br><br>But I do list some of the more conservative blogs over on my Link Wall...the ones where there's at least a chance of a decent discussion (even though y'all are SO wrong SO much of the time...)Dan Trabuehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14303597141397042669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7923725288901074422.post-86569415469015741132005-10-28T11:09:00.000-07:002005-10-28T11:09:00.000-07:00People do emotional and unreasonable at times. Bu...People do emotional and unreasonable at times. But you forgot mention the conservative blogs where you are treated with dignity and respect, like mine. Be careful not to charachterize us all with the examples you have given. How do you think people get striated, bigoted notions of people anyway?<br>Your friend,<br>DanielDaniel Levesquehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06704112785001913268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7923725288901074422.post-83535862901789970932005-10-28T10:59:00.000-07:002005-10-28T10:59:00.000-07:00Methinks things are only going to get nastier now ...Methinks things are only going to get nastier now that Scooter has been indicted. A trial is going to follow. That's not going to be good for anybody who backed this presidential administration.Wasp Jerkyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12069601959301114137noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7923725288901074422.post-60766841645911215472005-10-28T08:39:00.000-07:002005-10-28T08:39:00.000-07:00MadCap, I'd throw junk science and pop-history...MadCap, I'd throw junk science and pop-history in that mix as well. <br><br>Here, says I, Dan, is why debate is nearly nonexistent on blogs: In real debate we have rules of evidence, rules of logic, and we know and agree on the criteria to be used to judge whether a point wsa made or no.<br><br>One of the saws of debate is: "Anything gratuitously asserted can be gratuituously denied."<br><br>Debate used to be a furnace and a forge where one submitted one's ideas and by means of airing and debate, the dross was burned away. What you had at the end of the process was something worth having. People of that ilk assumed that their ideas would be assailed, looked forward to it, desired it, and prepared for it.<br><br>Now of days most blogs are of the strictly feel-good type. Say anything even remotely not in lockstep with the blogger, and you are an evil trouble maker. It's because the blogger fears to have therr ideas held up to scutiny.<br><br>Conservatives don't have a monopoly on this.Eleutheroshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14542743607861831706noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7923725288901074422.post-55470800302661514852005-10-28T07:44:00.000-07:002005-10-28T07:44:00.000-07:00Gosh, Dan, you're MEAN! How could you bring na...Gosh, Dan, you're MEAN! How could you bring nasty ol' logic into anything? <br><br>I'd say definitely that the ability to rationally discuss is conspicuous in its absence. The majority of folks that I get into a "real" conversation with seem unable to create a logic trail more than three steps long, and are disinterested in the process. <br><br>What people want is what they want, and emotional manipulation to achieve that is an extremely effective tool with a Pavlovian populace. If you "hurt my feelings" by not agreeing with me, then we no longer have to discuss the issue, and <i>you</i> are the agreed-upon brute. <br><br>Isn't that an "ad hominem"? Tut-tut, Marjorie! <br><br>Good luck to us all - bread and circuses and pop-psychology win every time.madcapmumhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08966173518099250557noreply@blogger.com