But where there are prophecies, they will cease;
where there are tongues, they will be stilled;
where there is knowledge, it will pass away.
For we know in part and we teach in part,
but when completeness comes,
what is in part disappears.
When I was a child,
I talked like a child,
I thought like a child,
I reasoned like a child.
When I grew up,
I put the ways of childhood behind me.
For now we see through a glass, darkly;
but then face to face:
now I know in part;
but then shall I know even as also I am known."
~St Paul
It's
all about love. Love and knowing, as much as we can know. And unlike
what some suggest, the more we know someone - their hopes, their
passions, their needs and yes, their (our) imperfections - the more we
can love them, not loathe them... not consider them "totally depraved," but totally beloved.
We all need more loving in this world.
6 comments:
To love each other despite the fact we are all "totally depraved". It seems clear you're hung up on the word "depraved", as it is typically used these days to denote incredible evil of a rather insane degree. You do this sort of thing a lot.
But it is Biblical, as it simply means we're all sinners...we're all possessed of a sin nature and inclined to sin.
Romans 3:23 – “For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;”
Romans 5:12 – “Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:”
1 John 1:8 – “If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.”
Ecclesiastes 7:20 – “For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.”
1 Kings 8:46 – “If they sin against thee, (for there is no man that sinneth not,) and thou be angry with them, and deliver them to the enemy, so that they carry them away captives unto the land of the enemy, far or near;”
So the concept of "total depravity" is simply acknowledging the fact of our sin nature and to wash us clean of it is the reason Christ was born and put to death. Those of us who seek Him and seek to live on His terms are those we're to love despite their total depravity because we are also sinners seeking the same forgiveness.
It's no small thing to ignore the truth of our sin nature by which Scripture so clearly teaches we're victimized. It is the reason we need Jesus, and only He was born without it, which is what made Him the perfect sacrifice for the forgiveness of sin.
The human theory (first seriously promoted by Augustine in the 4th century, NOT in the Bible) of "total depravity" is defined thusly by the traditionalists at Got Questions and other similar traditionalists.
"While often misunderstood, the doctrine of total depravity
is an acknowledgement that
the Bible teaches [it does not, it's a human theory and "the Bible" doesn't teach a single thing... "the Bible is not a teacher. Teaching comes from humans and, if you believe in such, God or gods and goddesses, perhaps nature, but not from dumb (ie, non-thinking, non-speaking) books]
that as a result of
the [theory of the] fall of man [a theory that many humans have held, without any proof for centuries]
every part of man [presumably, they mean all humanity and not just men]—
his mind, will, emotions and flesh—have been
corrupted by sin. [Prove it. Other than Augustine and many other conservative types THINKING this is the case, where is the objective proof for it? How does one measure "corrupted by sin..."? What does that even mean, in any objective manner? HOW did "sin" manage to "corrupt" (or totally corrupt!!) one's mind, will, emotions and flesh?]
In other words,
sin affects all areas of our being [Proof, please, or an admission that this is a human theory, naught else]
including who we are and what we do. [Proof?]
It penetrates to the very core of our being [Proof?]
so that everything is tainted by sin [Proof?]
and
“…all our righteous acts are like filthy rags”
before a holy God"
Proof, proof, proof. These are simple human theories by simple, fallible humans. GOD has not said this. The Bible does not literally "teach" this. These are human theories offered with NO support beyond, "We think this is what this means..."
That's problem number 1 with your human theory.
Marshal:
. It seems clear you're hung up on the word "depraved", as it is typically used these days to denote incredible evil of a rather insane degree.
The second problem with your comment and your human theory is the suggestion I'm talking about something other than what you all are theorizing. I'm using the words of traditionalists and talking about what YOU all are saying about your human theory, unproven as it is.
In other words, the human theory that "sin infects" (what does that even mean?) "every part of our being" (says who? Where's the proof? What does that even mean?)
Or that our "mind, will, emotions and flesh (flesh??)" have been "corrupted BY sin"? Again, what does that even mean? And where is the proof?
As to "everything being tainted by sin"... that's a mighty crazy and bold (ie, insane) claim. A loving set of spouses have been "tainted" by sin? Says who? Where's the proof? A loving mother caring dutifully for their child is "tainted by sin in everything..." Where's the proof?
A kind black man who saves a white racist from being bothered by pushy people who object to his racism... that has been tainted by sin? Says who? What does that mean? Where's the proof?
On and on it goes. These are weird theories offered without proof about things that seem dubious on the face of it, given the good, loving and kind actions we see in the world every day.
The third problem you have - the greatest problem of many - is this human notion of "total depravity" suggests that, somehow, we are deserving of eternal torture for the "crime" of having this theoretical "sin nature," a nature that we didn't ask for and that you can't prove.
IF by "sin nature," you mean the obvious notion - that we are imperfect human beings. That no human is 100% perfect their whole life - well, that IS correct. The evidence shows that no human is perfect all the time. But is it rational to say, "You human - coming from a species that is NEVER going to live a perfect life in any one human - you DESERVE to be punished for eternity for the "crime" of being imperfect..."? No, that's NOT a rational, loving or just theory or proposal. Indeed, it is quite irrational, unjust and hateful/diabolical.
Are we going to pushing a dog for eternity for being a jumpy, excitable dog that chases squirrels and barks a lot? That would be crazy, evil, right? IF a creature has certain characteristics that are innate to that creature... to say, "Well, I'm going to punish you FOREVER for being the creature that you are innately..." that's just insane. It's cruel, unjust and irrational and entirely lacking in reason, love or grace.
Where am I mistaken?
If, on the other hand, you mean something MORE/DIFFERENT than merely "They are imperfect and, when shooting for a target, will sometimes miss the mark..." then where is the evidence for that?
Where is the proof that this other Thing is deserving of eternal torture?
The holes and lack of evidence and just plain ugly irrationality of it are mind-boggling. Do you see that?
And so, returning to the point of THIS post: It truly is all about Love.
Love NEVER (not one single, blessed time) fails.
AND, if one affirms a God who is defined by Love, then it naturally extends that God and God's Love also never fail. Not one time. Not ever. Never. Aside from the biblical ideas from Paul, IF one affirms Love, then this is a rationally consistent suggestion.
Do YOU think that Love (or God) sometimes DOES fail?
Further, it rationally follows that IF one affirms an all-knowing God, AND the teaching/theory here from Paul, that in being fully known, THAT is where and why God can fully love us in a way no mere mortal CAN, because God knows us and finds/declares us beloved of God. It is in the knowing that Love can manifest itself perfectly.
Do you disagree?
One last thing. You said:
Those of us who seek Him and seek to live on His terms
are those we're to love
despite their total depravity because
we are also sinners seeking the same forgiveness.
What you literally said there is that WE are to love "those who seek God AND live on God's terms..." Is that literally what you theorize? That we are to ONLY love those who (in our human estimation) we are to love, no one else?
?
Surely that isn't what you meant to say?
IF that's your theory, I disagree. I think it's all about love and love and love. We are to love, even in our own fallible human frailty, the best we can manage. It is in love and God's grace that we're finding salvation. Not in punishment or eternal cruelty or threats of eternal cruelty based on an irrational, hopeless Ponzi scheme sin theory.
Some thoughts about the word, Depraved. The modern definition and understanding of the word (from MW and Cambridge Dictionaries):
": marked by corruption or evil
especially : having or showing an evil and immoral character
...
morally bad or evil:"
Would you agree that there is a vast difference between saying:
"Marshal is a wicked, morally bad, evil, corrupt human being..."
and
"Marshal is an imperfect human being, prone to making mistakes and sometimes causing harm, even..."
?
Which do you think is true of you, personally?
Which do you think is true of humanity - of every human being ever?
While waiting to see if you answer any of these many questions that arise from your human theories in your comments, I'll just note that I'm more than glad to acknowlege:
* That every human ever has been imperfect;
* That we all make mistakes;
* That we all cause some harm (of greater and lesser degrees) to others;
* That SOME humans (not all) cause great harm and act in ways that are rationally called "EVIL, Depraved, utterly corrupt..."
And that, given some humans (not all) causing GREAT harm of horrifically depraved evil... such actions should be held accountable in strong ways, some punishment is reasonably required.
And further, that lesser harms caused by the more common failings of humanity (snapping unkindly at one's mother or child, taking a pencil from work, taking the last cookie when your sister also wanted it...) are also wrong, but not rationally punished at the same level as the rapist or one who takes part in genocide or the kidnapping of immigrants.
Would you agree to that? OR do you think all are deserving (reasonably, rationally, justly) of eternal torture of some sort?
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